AOW vs GUE Fundamentals

[Ayisha]

You can certainly rent or borrow gear for a GUE Fundies course. Many GUE instructors have all kinds of kit for students. If you know anyone in the GUE community, they are very generous about letting people try their equipment and loaning it out.

For me, my jacket BCD was 9 years old and past it's useful life, so I had already replaced it with a backplate and wing years before I thought about doing GUE training. Once I did think about it, I just needed to change a couple of hoses, and since I didn't have a wrist mounted computer or bottom timer, I bought a wrist mounted computer, an SPG, some bolt snaps, and my GUE instructor gave me jetfins to keep.

I lucked out that my OW instructor was a GUE diver and he went on to become a Tech 2, Cave 2 diver. He stood out from all the rest of the instructors and I wished that I could emulate him, but never thought I'd be able to do it. I saw the difference from the beginning between GUE divers/instructors and others, even other tech divers/instructors. I did the AOW/Deep Diver/Rescue Diver/Master Scuba Diver route, but I learned the most from the discussions about GUE practices over the years, and then through the GUE Fundamentals intensive training.

 

[scubadada]

Hi LACounty4806:

What does the Los Angeles County program highlight and emphasize in its course? In truth, this would help prospective divers in choosing their education path. Too often, we hear that one agency is better than the other without specifics. GUE stresses the importance of pre-determining/planning dive profiles exposures and having the necessary equipment to support these goals. In water, it stresses the importance of horizontal trim, buoyancy, efficient propulsion and good team dynamics.

Could you give us a run down on one of the most popular courses offered by the LAC organization? Thanks for your input.

The LA Co Underwater Unit no longer teaches Basic Scuba Diver, like the course I took in 1970. They offer Rocks, Rips, & Reefs (3Rs), the Advanced Diver Program (ADP) and the Underwater Instructor Certification Course (UICC). You'd probably enjoy taking a look at their website Underwater Unit

 

[boulderjohn]

Hi John. I don't know what your experience is with Los Angeles County program but I have to assume it's limited. First of all, ADP's not a program designed to stem diver drop out.

I got the information from this History of NAUI, co-written by Al Tillman. Tillman founded the Los Angeles County program and later went on to found NAUI. He was NAUI instructor #1. In this history he says that NAUI went on and created their AOW program for the same reason. He has since died, or I am sure he would have appreciated your correction of his memory on this issue.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You can certainly rent or borrow gear for a GUE Fundies course. Many GUE instructors have all kinds of kit for students. If you know anyone in the GUE community, they are very generous about letting people try their equipment and loaning it out.

For me, my jacket BCD was 9 years old and past it's useful life, so I had already replaced it with a backplate and wing years before I thought about doing GUE training. Once I did think about it, I just needed to change a couple of hoses, and since I didn't have a wrist mounted computer or bottom timer, I bought a wrist mounted computer, an SPG, some bolt snaps, and my GUE instructor gave me jetfins to keep.

I lucked out that my OW instructor was a GUE diver and he went on to become a Tech 2, Cave 2 diver. He stood out from all the rest of the instructors and I wished that I could emulate him, but never thought I'd be able to do it. I saw the difference from the beginning between GUE divers/instructors and others, even other tech divers/instructors. I did the AOW/Deep Diver/Rescue Diver/Master Scuba Diver route, but I learned the most from the discussions about GUE practices over the years, and then through the GUE Fundamentals intensive training.

Quite a bit of my dive gear has seen way more GUE Fundies classes than I have ... and I'm not even GUE. Despite what you commonly read on ScubaBoard, it doesn't have to be a specific brand ... the only Halcyon equipment I own is an Eclipse wing and a few argon bottle tank straps ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added February 21st, 2015 at 06:15 AM ----------

I got the information from this History of NAUI, co-written by Al Tillman. Tillman founded the Los Angeles County program and later went on to found NAUI. He was NAUI instructor #1. In this history he says that NAUI went on and created their AOW program for the same reason. He has since died, or I am sure he would have appreciated your correction of his memory on this issue.

Quite a lot changed since Mr. Tillman's days with NAUI. When I first became a NAUI instructor in 2004 I purchased the instructor's library and started going through the curriculum for the various courses I could teach. When I came to their Advanced Scuba Diver (AOW) course, my initial response was "I can't charge people money for that" ... it struck me as mostly a review of OW curriculum, with some deep, limited vis and S&R stuff thrown into the mix. So, using the standards as my guide, I wrote my own curriculum ... one that was designed to teach newish divers how to dive unsupervised here in Pacific Northwest conditions. The only thing I kept intact from the NAUI material was the Search & Recovery stuff ... which they did a really good job with. My approach differed from NAUI's in one significant respect ... rather than place emphasis on telling people what to do, I placed emphasis on teaching them how to do it ... from planning a dive to being a buddy to managing your air to finding your way around underwater (particularly in our usual limited vis conditions). The six dives were all designed to focus on skills rather than experiences ... and there were no "options". Every dive was a "buoyancy" dive, in that you were not allowed to ever touch your knees to the bottom. There were skills not included in the NAUI materials ... like shooting an SMB ... because they are essential skills for diving in our environment. And the final dive was done completely mid-water ... where you cannot see the bottom. It was a nav dive where one dive buddy got the compass and the other got the depth gauge/bottom timer. The objective was to navigate a specified course while maintaining a constant 20-foot depth. The purpose wasn't so much navigation as it was managing task-loading while working together.

Over the past 11 years it's proven to be my most popular class ... I've had people come from places like Minnesota, Colorado and Georgia to take the class ... because they couldn't find anything like it closer to home. Quite a few of the students who took that class went on to pursue the GUE path. I've been told by the local GUE instructor that my students come very well prepared to go that route ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[scubadada]

I got the information from this History of NAUI, co-written by Al Tillman. Tillman founded the Los Angeles County program and later went on to found NAUI. He was NAUI instructor #1. In this history he says that NAUI went on and created their AOW program for the same reason. He has since died, or I am sure he would have appreciated your correction of his memory on this issue.

Hi John,

Sorry, but your comment is based on no current knowledge of the LACUU ADP. I enjoyed the article by Al Tillman also but it can hardly be cited as a definitive reference for the course. Circumstances change over time and the rationale for a course like this likely changed also. The LACUU unit ADP has absolutely no resemblance to other currently available AOW courses. Stick to what you know, best of luck in Colorado. If you have no direct knowledge, sometimes it best to say nothing. There's certainly no reason to be condescending.

Good diving, Craig

 

[boulderjohn]

Hi John,

Sorry, but your comment is based on no current knowledge of the LACUU ADP. I enjoyed the article by Al Tillman also but it can hardly be cited as a definitive reference for the course. Circumstances change over time and the rationale for a course like this likely changed also. The LACUU unit ADP has absolutely no resemblance to other currently available AOW courses. Stick to what you know, best of luck in Colorado. If you have no direct knowledge, sometimes it best to say nothing. There's certainly no reason to be condescending.

Good diving, Craig

If you read what I wrote, I never mentioned the current situation once. I was clearly talking about the origin in 1965, and my information comes from what Al Tillman wrote about it. If Tillman was lying, then I was deceived. I am sorry if I spread his misinformation, but I would say it would be understandable for me to be misinformed.

 

[LACounty4806]

I got the information from this History of NAUI, co-written by Al Tillman. Tillman founded the Los Angeles County program and later went on to found NAUI. He was NAUI instructor #1. In this history he says that NAUI went on and created their AOW program for the same reason. He has since died, or I am sure he would have appreciated your correction of his memory on this issue.

Hi John. First of all, NAUI and Los Angeles County are 2 different programs. That is the history of NAUI. Al Tillman wasn't even with Los Angeles County when ADP was first run. He had left his position as an underwater specialist for the underwater unit several years earlier. Los Angeles County's program was and is all about public safety and education and developing the best trained and safest divers possible for Southern California. In fact, Tillman in the article even discusses that Los Angeles County programs exceed the standard for the NAUI programs. He would also be the very first person to tell you that the NAUI AOW program is very different from the LA County ADP and designed for very different reasons.

 

[AdivingBel]

Hi John. First of all, NAUI and Los Angeles County are 2 different programs. That is the history of NAUI. Al Tillman wasn't even with Los Angeles County when ADP was first run. He had left his position as an underwater specialist for the underwater unit several years earlier. Los Angeles County's program was and is all about public safety and education and developing the best trained and safest divers possible for Southern California conditions is what the programming is all about. In fact, Tillman in the article even discusses that Los Angeles County programs exceed the standard for the NAUI programs. He would also be the very first person to tell you that the NAUI AOW program is very different from the LA County ADP and designed for very different reasons.

Guys, guys...unless I'm reading a different thread, ADP never came out of John's mouth, excuse me, keyboard. He was talking about the evolution of AOW from the early LA County Programs thru its inception at NAUI. Not sure I got all that correct. I've read it in several threads. He was NEVER comparing AOW, then or now, with the ADP program. At least that's how I read it (several times). Are you saying that statement is incorrect? Sorry for butting in John.

 

[boulderjohn]

Hi John. First of all, NAUI and Los Angeles County are 2 different programs. That is the history of NAUI. Al Tillman wasn't even with Los Angeles County when ADP was first run. He had left his position as an underwater specialist for the underwater unit several years earlier. Los Angeles County's program was and is all about public safety and education and developing the best trained and safest divers possible for Southern California conditions is what the programming is all about. In fact, Tillman in the article even discusses that Los Angeles County programs exceed the standard for the NAUI programs. He would also be the very first person to tell you that the NAUI AOW program is very different from the LA County ADP and designed for very different reasons.

OK, I guess I used a thoroughly disreputable source. But Al Tillman would not be the first one to tell you that the programs were designed for very different reasons, since he is the one who said they were designed for the same reasons. I also failed to realize I was treading on such sacred ground. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition, and I certainly did not expect it here.

 

[scubadada]

Not unusual for SB, is it?