Are resort DM's really that reckless?

[DiverDurf]

Very, very new diver here so please be patient with the question. I just spent 'literally' 4.5 hours reading from the last page to page 64 of this accident/incidents discussion (I research everything new I pursue). One thing that is consistently jumping out are the numerous accounts of resort DM's that take diver groups to absurd depths of 130' (or more) "regardless" of their dive experience. A lot of the stories are of depths worse than that, even with brand spankin' new divers, with what reads as absolutely no regard for their safety. As a result, there are also numerous OOA incidents and buddy breathing just to make a safe ascent.

What is the deal here? Are the DM's really that reckless with tourist groups? I'll be doing a trip to the Cozumel area next year, but it appears to be viciously clear that you need to go with a buddy you trust and almost say "screw the DM" from the get-go. Sheesh!

 

[LowVizWiz]

What is the deal here? Are the DM's really that reckless with tourist groups? I'll be doing a trip to the Cozumel area next year, but it appears to be viciously clear that you need to go with a buddy you trust and almost say "screw the DM" from the get-go. Sheesh!

Not to be callous, but you're the only person responsible for your safety during a dive. If people didn't dive beyond their training and experience and avoided "trust me" dives there probably wouldn't be so much to read in the accidents and incidents forum.

As the old saying goes, there's 3 sides to every story... His, hers and the truth!

Wiz

 

[divezonescuba]

We went on a cruise ship last year to Cozumel. There were several new divers aboard that had just received their open water certification in inland waters. On the very first dive, we went between 80 and 95 feet on a drift dive. No one on board the dive boat bothered asking any of the divers what level of experience that had. They did say that if you went past 80 feet that they weren't going after you. We also did a number of fairly long swim through tunnels / canyons which were also totally inappropriate for someone without good bouyancy control. Some of them were so narrow only one person could go through at a time. I am not sure what would happen if someone had a problem or panicked while going though one.

One woman who was in this category had an uncontrolled ascent in the middle of the dive. The DM went up the to surface and brought her back down to depth. After the dives, we saw an ambulance back at the cruise ship. We thought it was for her. Fortunately, she survived those dives and went on to do a number more during the cruise.

Not to worry, in Cozumel there's a walk in recompression chamber down a side street not too far from the dock. They take all major credit cards.

 

[tstormdiver]

No, of course not ALL DM's are that reckless. There is the good with the bad in any group. I can't say what the motives are for a DM to take such risks. I personally do not & will not purposely put anyone at unnecessary risk. I will say that I do not & have never worked for a resort, but I have been with groups & at times led groups on dives, not because I've had to, but because the group wanted me to(aka, I am not paid). When we plan the dive, we do it to the experience & comfort of the least experienced diver(s). When making the plan I clearly explain this to all in the group & to date, no one has ever had a problem with it, if they did, they & their buddy have the option of not being in the group & doing their own thing. Of course, this isn't really the same situation, but if someone has a good time & I could make it happen, so be it. But never with putting someone at unnecessary risk.

 

[Damselfish]

Some DMs do dumb things, but there's plenty of good DMs. Remember, people are much more likely to write about when "something" happened - especially in the "Accidents and Incidents" forum. They're not so likely to write about when nothing of note happened to write about.

It's best to have a good buddy whether the DM is good, bad, or non-existent. In any event you want to use your common sense and not follow a DM into a situation that's wrong for you.

 

[Tigerman]

Researching ops before you go on vacations helps a lot.
Lots of people just walk into the first and best dive shop and assume they are responsible and professional, which unfortunately is not always the case. If they are not and you have an accident you can be pretty sure everyone is going to hear about it and then itll be forgotten 2 days later and theire ready for new accidents. A few of them is going to end up on websites like scubaboard.
If they ARE responsible and professional, it wont end up in the accidents and incidents part of websites like scubaboard and its nothing but a good memory to yourself.

Yes, theres lots of bad OPs and DMs out there, fortunately theres also a lot of good ones.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

Not to be callous, but you're the only person responsible for your safety during a dive. If people didn't dive beyond their training and experience and avoided "trust me" dives there probably wouldn't be so much to read in the accidents and incidents forum.
Wiz

The issue I have with this is in my opinion it's too close to the "blame the victim" type of arguments. It kind of reminds me of blaming the victims of a pyramid scam because "they should have known better". In hindsight, these people look like complete idiots, but they still aren't the ones trying to break the rules.

What I mean is, you're 100% correct that a diver can always say "screw you" to the divemaster, and after the fact it's easy to say "why did he listen to that idiot?". But in reality, especially to people who have maybe never dove before (which I believe is often the case with tropical resorts), the divemaster is the (normally paid) authority figure. Yes, people have responsibilities such as to check their gauges and keep an eye on their buddy. However, when the divemaster assures you that going past your PADI/NAUI/whatever limits is perfectly safe, unexperienced divers will tend to trust them.

The other thing is, in reality it's sometimes difficult to say "no". For example, credit card fraud experts say never let your card leave your site. Yet, we all let the waiter or waitress take our card from us at the restaurant. Sure, if afterwards you find someone just bought a big screen TV on your card, someone can blame you for not following the advice, but the truth is most people are too embarrassed to do what is advised of them. If a divemaster is assuring you something is perfectly safe, it can kind of embarrassing to argue it, especially if brand new. Even worse, if you're already underwater and notice that you're starting to go below 60 feet, now you have to try and stop the whole group while underwater and possibly "ruin" the dive in their minds. It's not a good situation.

So sure technically you can blame the followers, tell them to "grow a pair" and not listen to the Divemaster, but in my opinion the Divemaster is the authority figure and needs to be the responsible one. The diver should be worrying about his or her own safety (and their budies) not worrying about the divemaster's incompetence.

Fortunately, all the divemasters and instructors I've dealt with have been very professional and cautious, so I'm not speaking from personal experience. However, if people can't trust the Divemaster to follow the rules (and not lead his followers into conditions they are untrained for), why even have them?

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

No, of course not ALL DM's are that reckless. There is the good with the bad in any group. I can't say what the motives are for a DM to take such risks. I personally do not & will not purposely put anyone at unnecessary risk. I will say that I do not & have never worked for a resort, but I have been with groups & at times led groups on dives, not because I've had to, but because the group wanted me to(aka, I am not paid). When we plan the dive, we do it to the experience & comfort of the least experienced diver(s). When making the plan I clearly explain this to all in the group & to date, no one has ever had a problem with it, if they did, they & their buddy have the option of not being in the group & doing their own thing. Of course, this isn't really the same situation, but if someone has a good time & I could make it happen, so be it. But never with putting someone at unnecessary risk.

And this gets to what I'm saying. When someone puts "Divemaster" beside their name, they are taking on a certain level of responsibility. The way you describe your dive planning way I'd expect Divemaster's to act, and as a new diver I thank you for that. I also truly believe the vast majority do follow this sort of methodology, although maybe things are different with resorts?

Also, part of the issue may be these resorts are in places that aren't as developed as where most of us come from. It's a bit of a controversial point, but truth is there probably aren't as many ramifications for diving injuries and deaths, they just don't have the same legal system.

 

[I Dive]

What is the deal here? Are the DM's really that reckless with tourist groups? I'll be doing a trip to the Cozumel area next year, but it appears to be viciously clear that you need to go with a buddy you trust and almost say "screw the DM" from the get-go. Sheesh!

I have yet to find an occupation that doesn't have more than it's fair share of morons... As with any professional, you can find an awesome DM, a lousy excuse for one, and everything in between. Think of what you do for a living. If someone heard of some terrible experiences with other people in your industry, would you want that person to then conclude that you must be just as bad and they should therefore avoid your industry altogether? If the world operated that way, I don't think anyone would ever do business anywhere...

 

[Web Monkey]

What is the deal here? Are the DM's really that reckless with tourist groups? I'll be doing a trip to the Cozumel area next year, but it appears to be viciously clear that you need to go with a buddy you trust and almost say "screw the DM" from the get-go. Sheesh!

That pretty much covers it. I had a facinating dive with a brand new buddy and DM in Cozumel last year.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/3514441-post28.html

It's entirely possible you'll get a great DM that will treat you like one of his children. It's also possible you'll get one that thinks there's no difference between 30' and 130'.

Bring a good buddy, stick close to your buddy, follow your training and you'll be fine. At least for now, if your OW book said something and the DM says something else, beleive the book.

Yes. The deep-single file swim-through are potentially very dangerous. It's easy enough to run out of air in one and because it's single file, you probably won't be able to turn around or share air, and on the longer swim-throughs, it's possible to be trapped between the diver in front and the diver behind.

The shallow, short swim-throughs are probably fine, but I'd skip the deep, long swim-throughs.

Terry