Are trim and buoyancy fundamentally related?

[MichaelMc]

Bold bit's in order.

How does taking off your equipment give you water skills? What skills does it give you? If it gave good skills tdi/iantd/tec-rec etc would introduce it. They don't because it doesn't prove or teach anything useful.

CESA is there as a last chance backup as people do not last very long if their buddy is even a few seconds away. It's only meant to be done in shallow water.

They can make themselves negative by changing their configuration or more simply by leaving their equipment on. There is no need to take it off lol.

I do object to using it as a test of good water skills... As it doesn't test anything to do with good water skills. It's ridiculous. If I or anyone I know were diving and saw people doing this we'd spit our regs out from laughing after we were sure they were okay. After that we'd video it and share it with others. There was an old name for people who did this "stroke" - this is totally stroke like behavior.

Edit - why don't you get a drysuit??? and what is a dm candidate doing guiding people around?

Teaching water skills: I think I've said it a few times. It does not teach good water skills, it's a handy test of them and how students handle issues underwater that provides some additional contingency preparation.

Entangled: Gear ditch is not meant as the ultimate disentangle method, just one option to be partially prepared with. Kelp is both really buoyant and anchored to the bottom. Dangling from the kelp I'm stuck in is likely to make me more stuck.

Testing water skills: Why you you think it does not test anything to do with water skills? Do you think those with poor skills would pass with comfort? (Setting aside laughing at and videoing people doing some training or drills, as those do not tell me why.)

Suit: I'm a poor grad student, my 10mm works, I might do dry training on a trip to Vancouver, dry is more complex.

Guiding as DMC: They are AOW already and are being trained as scientific divers, we have instructors (or DMs) topside or with each group. The first thing we do is a full rescue course, and AED/O2/CPR, so they're fully qualified to be on their own, given topside supervision, under NAUI standards. Almost everything they do is in the context of laying down tapes on the bottom and counting things on either side of it, so we have control and know where they should be. Its shallow, mostly max 30', usually at least 6-12' vis. If I lost them I could always find them again from bubbles or where they should be by the tape(s). I have not lost them yet, though I almost came close on a 2-3' vis dive with some surge, they were counting little cone snails under those conditions while trading off deploying, recovering, and managing an SMB, and laying and retrieving their 30meter transect tape, 1 meter measure sticks, and data slates. They're not basic OW students.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

In solo diving it might be appropriate. I say might as anyone with a brain would make themselves negative and hold onto whatever was causing the problem so their bcd could not fly away. What's more - removing yourself from your bcd/wing will be rather different if it's trapped anyway won't it. Rather than moving the equipment you will be moving yourself. So the value of the skill is not only questionable - it's useless.

I found it to be not only a useful skill, but one that wasn't as particularly difficult as you seem to imagine. You can't "hold onto" a derelict fishing line ... if it's entangled behind you it's unlikely you'll even be able to see it or reach it without first removing your rig. As for whether you're moving the equipment or yourself ... what difference does that make in a weightless environment and a shifting frame of reference? The main thing you have to concern yourself with is how removing your rig is going to affect the buoyancy of your body ... in a weight integrated rig it could be significant (particularly in cold water), whereas if you're wearing a weightbelt or harness it won't really change much.

Even when not solo diving, I prefer the ability to be self-sufficient, as I tend to do a lot of mentoring, and can't always count on a buddy who's sufficiently knowledgeable to do the right thing. But overall, the ability to mentally sort through a problem and take whatever steps are necessary to resolve it without losing control of your buoyancy is never a useless skill to have ... BCD doff and don is just one of several exercises that will help you develop that ability, and the confidence that comes with knowing you have what it takes to creatively resolve problems underwater.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bold bit's in order.

How does taking off your equipment give you water skills? What skills does it give you? If it gave good skills tdi/iantd/tec-rec etc would introduce it. They don't because it doesn't prove or teach anything useful.

CESA is there as a last chance backup as people do not last very long if their buddy is even a few seconds away. It's only meant to be done in shallow water.

They can make themselves negative by changing their configuration or more simply by leaving their equipment on. There is no need to take it off lol.

I do object to using it as a test of good water skills... As it doesn't test anything to do with good water skills. It's ridiculous. If I or anyone I know were diving and saw people doing this we'd spit our regs out from laughing after we were sure they were okay. After that we'd video it and share it with others. There was an old name for people who did this "stroke" - this is totally stroke like behavior.

Edit - why don't you get a drysuit??? and what is a dm candidate doing guiding people around?

... so how recently did you take Fundies ... and have you passed it yet?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[HantsDiver]

... so how recently did you take Fundies ... and have you passed it yet?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

About three years ago. And I did manage eventually.

 

[Ayisha]

About three years ago. And I did manage eventually.

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

 

[outofofficebrb]

Wasn't it you, CharlieRogers, who said that you would post video of yourself in perfect trim and motionless while being neutral for the one minute you were asked to do so in another thread? Then after a wait and prodding, you finally posted something to the effect that it didn't work out and you were not as good as you thought you were. Kudos to you for admitting it. However, now you simply dismiss the idea that students may need to be proficient at skills while maintaining trim and depth before furthering their training? How does this make sense?

Internet, duh...

The internet changes its mind a lot as well. One moment it is about buoyancy not being important and another saying it is.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

About three years ago. And I did manage eventually.

... folks usually outgrow the use of the "S" word once the newness wears off ... it doesn't mean what you think it means ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[HantsDiver]

... folks usually outgrow the use of the "S" word once the newness wears off ... it doesn't mean what you think it means ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The s word means sexy and what it means is what I see when I look in the mirror.

Each to their own - I won't take off my equipment as I think it's silly. I'm not going to influence anyone on here so I'll leave it now.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The s word means sexy and what it means is what I see when I look in the mirror.

Each to their own - I won't take off my equipment as I think it's silly. I'm not going to influence anyone on here so I'll leave it now.

... you certainly won't influence anyone by calling them a stroke ... even if you had used the term in its proper context. Most real DIR divers outgrew that term 20 years ago ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[HantsDiver]

Here is a video I have permission to use which I think demonstrates that trim and buoyancy are not related. There are a few things wrong with this diving - but you can't really say he isn't neutrally buoyant. You can see that his knees come up when he goes to frog kick, meaning that he is in trim for that part of the dive. The frogkick is a bit of a poor effort but that's not the point here.