Artifact Question

[CheeseWhiz]

I take your point, Duca. To me, however, the difference would be that the (usually) better visibility we have in air makes a car wreck in the Grand Canyon a tad more visible and that much more of an eyesore (even though I can't see the Grand Canyon from where I am...and I was even up on my roof earlier in the day).

The other situation which may or may not apply to wrecks is whether or not people have died on them. If there have been fatalities on a wreck, my tendency would be to treat it as you would any gravesite and respect it as such. If the hypothetical car wreck in the Grand Canyon still had bodies in it, only a very special kind of person would contemplate going through the glove box.

G2...wouldn't any shipwreck, recent or not, qualify as historical to some degree?

Ahh well... my brain hurts now. I think I'll go diving.

 

[aadiver]

As a co-founder of California Wreck Divers (1971) it has been suggested that I share with the Board my views on shipwreck artifact recovery.
There are four classes of shipwrecks: 1: war graves,
2: historically significant, 3: archaeologically significant, and 4: insignificant. Totally agree hands off the first three. As to class #4, collectable artifacts, i.e. portholes, gauges, valves, cage lamps, etc. are soon so overgrown to be totally unrecognizable to most recreational divers. If left "in situ" Mer Madre will eventually destroy them and/or they'll sink into the sea bed. Of artifacts recovered and placed in nautical museums, only 10 to 15 percent of them are ever displayed at one time. The rest are stored out of sight, out of mind. Bottom line: recover artifacts where it's still legal to do so and don't where it's not. But please do us all a favor: don't just toss them into your backyard; restore and display them.

 

[Bob3]

David, I see that you're in Cleveland. The inshore/Great Lakes differ considerably from the ocean with regards to salvage.
In the Great Lakes, everything that winds up on the bottom still belongs to the original owner, their insurance company, or if considered abandoned or "historical", the state.
You might be able to get away with picking stuff up that's from a wreck that's been ground up by the ice though.
River diving is a lot of fun & produces an unimaginable assortment of artifacts.

 

[TAM Dive]

Hmmmmmmm???
I expected a lot more debate on the subject?? I'm NAS (nautical archeaological society) certified up here in the great white north, I live in an area of Ontario that is turning out to be rich in aboriginal history, this past summer some of the finds in the area are a 9000 year old projectile head (spear head), 1500 year old pottery piece, 2000 year old fully intact piece of pottery, 5000 year old fish weer, all found in local lakes in the region.
We've had a number of meetings with local divers, Parks Canada (who govern the water ways) and local aboriginal officials (chiefs & elders) from local first nations, some of the debates get very heated, all surrounding whether artifacts should be recovered or left on the bottom for others to enjoy.
One thought is, by removing an artifact you are removing a piece of the story it tells, where, how and with what it lies tells a lot about the time and who left it behind, all pieces are then important to the whole story.
The other thought is, by removing the artifact, restoring it, you save the piece from sure distruction??
In your case I guess you need to figure this one out, do you want these artifacts for YOUR private collection??? If this is the case, your artifact will somewhere down the line end up in a box, which will ultimately end up in a garbage dump somewhere, for no one to enjoy.
If you are retrieving artifacts to resort and display in a museum, under the guidence of the proper authorities, you may get a lot of enjoyment by participating in a project, that will document the find and tell the story of the artifact, and you'll get satisfaction in that more people will enjoy viewing the artifact.
By leaving the artifacts where they lie, then the diving population will get a chance to see them in the enviroment they were found. It is sad when wrecks get stripped. One story I can tell you is of a wreck that had been kept secret for a number of years after it's discovery, it was in great shape, lots of brass, pottery, cuttlery, tools, dead eyes, and the usual stuff you would find on a wreck for the 1800's. This wreck was featured on a TV show in April, by October of the same year, the wreck had been totally stripped, of everything, we found one bilge pump off the side in the mud. Now local divers put useless bottles on the wreck, just so divers have something to look at...........really sad.

I guess you need to think about reasons why you want to visit a wreck and retrieve artifacts??

my humble thoughts
John

 

[DivingGal]

TAM Dive -- too cool what level of NAS? I've got level 1, and will be working on level 2 starting next month.

here's some other views on this subject
Wreck rights and wrongs

 

[Butch103]

Good to see you have joined the board. I know with your experience and knowledge you will certainly be an asset to all of us here. I agree wih your thoughts. When and if you can remove an item, make sure it has an opportunity to be enjoyed by all.

Butch eace:

PS How was the wedding on Thanksgiving ??

 

[CheeseWhiz]

Welcome to the Board. Your credentials will (and already have) made a valuable contribution.

You make a good point about souvenirs winding up being thrown away. Frequently our spouse/siginificant other does not share our love of and interest in things under water. I'm sure more than one valuable artifact lies buried beneath a mountain of used diapers and beer cans somewhere. As a corollary, once an artifact is removed from a wreck, unless it is placed on view in a museum or somewhere similar, it loses historical context. It simply becomes a tool/bottle/whatever, with no references to attest to its value.

"Projectile head," eh? I like the sound of it. I may just put that in my repertoire of insults.

For us dummies, what does one have to do to get NAS certification?

CW

 

[syruss32]

Wish I could offer words of wisdom on this subject but since I have only dove in Clear Springs Scuba Park in Texas the only items I have found so far are a couch, an old metal folding chair and a metal grid that is 8' x 10'

At the time I concluded that I'd leave 'em there as I didn't want them nor could I have lifted 2 out of 3 of them.

I think that recovering and restoring items is the way to go so long as they don't end up in a box somewhere. But then again even in a box someone else might come along and find them whereas in the ocean eventually they would decay and be lost anyway.

If anyone can bring up the Edmund Fitzgerald let me know I promise it won't go in a box, I will put it in my back yard (and 10-12 of my neighbors yards) and promise to play the song of the same name when visitors come to check it out!

 

[Ontario Diver]

Don't know Syruss. Lot's of painting and the wife say's you haven't finished the Laundry room.

NAS is Nautical Archeological Society (http://www.nasportsmouth.org.uk/ ) is an internationa accredidation program. (Even works in Texas) for assisting Archeologists. There is an intro course (afternoon length ?) and then NAS I, II, and III In Ontario, you must take the course through wone of the local wreck societies (SOS - Save Ontario Shipwrecks
or POW - http://www.gtcs.org/pow.html)

I don't know who can teach it in the US. The Ontario instructor is great

I've taken NAS 1 - I will not look at a shipwreck the same way again

 

[Power Scuba]

I have no problem whatsoever with anyone taking artifacts from a wreck in which it is currently legal to do so. Upon entering that person's possesion it is legally theirs, so I also have no problem if they choose NOT to display or share the item with others. Would it be a shame? Of course, but the dang thing is THEIRS so no one has anything to say about it.

As far as the four classes of shipwrecks... sounds right to me. I'll tell you what though: I think historically and archeologically important wrecks should be salvaged (by competant authorities) as well. This thread took me back to Truk Lagoon, which I dove 7 years ago. All those FANTASTIC items going to rust and decay! In a few more decades many of them will be utterly and irretrievably gone. The really sad part is that the local government can't do anything about it except to mandate that nothing be brought up. Everytime they tried to bring stuff up for preservation and display... it was stolen! So, there it sits. Safe for now, protected by the local dive guides and shops, but soon to disappear forever.

If it CAN be brought up then BRING IT UP or you lose it altogether sooner or later.

:sheik:

See you all when I get back from Egypt with my Navy Reserve Unit!

Bill
Bill@pwrvideo.com
http://www.pwrvideo.com