Australian woman dead - South Africa

[lv2dive]

**Not a post for friends/family**

I had read this post and wasn't going to comment initially bc I focused more on my thought that it must be a regional thing prompting the statement that managing dbl bladder wing is standard part of a tec course. I agree with cerich, it is certainly not standard, and i am speaking from the perspective of having taken tech-not-counting-cave classes with 3 dif agencies, none of whom even discussed it.

At any rate, on re-read, I felt compelled to comment... I can not agree with the statement tat peer pressure "played the key point." We could discuss all day how ready the victim was (or was not) to actually do the dive, but everything I have read indicates she had the training to prepare *her* to make that decision. She may have had some people that were influencing her, but at the end of the day, as tech divers, we have to be responsible for making the best choices we can, period, there is too much at stake. And if it means sitting out a pinnacle dive, that is what it is. I would rather sit out a dive than move forward if I've got any kind of apprehensions, and have sat a few out - no regrets. I used to pride myself on never having skipped a dive, now, I just hope I continue to have the sense to know when to call the dive before it starts.

Clearly there are lessons to be learned from this incident, whether it feels more relevant in looking at our own diving, or, to the point in the below-referenced post, when looking at how we influence others.

No agency will tell you that after your cert you can do everything you want, they give you tools and knowledge to progress on your own. First you have to build your own experience and progress step by step not in a hurry. 200 dives is very limited to experience issues like with a double bladder or a lot of others. Then from a 70m uncomfortable dive to 100m one month after her cert, I would say that peer pressure play the key point here.

By the way, managing a double bladder issue is normally part of a standard tec course.

 

[Doppler]

By the way, managing a double bladder issue is normally part of a standard tec course.

I agree with Kate that this is certainly NOT the case. Far from it.

Should a student arrive for a course with a double bladder wing, the first thing we teach is to remove a second LP inflation hose. This type of incident was identified as a potential risk 15 ******* years ago, and although the protocol to disconnect the second inflator AND stow it so that it is NOT easy to confuse it with the active one may NOT be part of standards (that's a debatable point), it has been strongly suggested best practice in every instructor workshop I've been involved with.

And for the record, I have NO PROBLEM teaching non-standard tec programs if inane practices such as allowing divers to have convoluted gear configurations is ANYWHERE considered standard.

 

[exposure]

Sorry to have said "standard", my mistake. Corrected on my post.

 

[mala]

I was taught redundant buoyancy.


on open circuit in a wetsuit this means a double bladder wing.

 

[tracydr]

Why would anybody choose to dive 100M in a wetsuit? Even if the water is 80 degrees, that would seem like it would be crazy cold. I hope not because she didn't have a she-pee some other silly reason. Who does deep dives like this anymore in wetsuits?
Which again leads to the question, why a double bladder wing?
I've always been a woman in a man's career. I was a Missile Launch Officer in the Air Force, I was the Artillery Surgeon in the Army III Corps Artillery. When I arrived at the artillery, they didn't know that I was a woman and they were not exactly happy about my arrival, to say the least, I had a lot to prove, just because I was a woman. I did succeed and in fact, did extremely well. The Artillery doesn't allow women, or didn't when I was their Surgeon. Being a woman in a man's world is never easy. I always felt like I was trying to prove myself, doing extra just to get by. I may have pushed myself too hard at times but in the end it was well worth the effort.
I do feel for this woman, as there aren't many women doing dives at that level.
I have felt peer pressure from being a woman in a man's world. In fact, it can be an incredibly strong force and I do believe it causes many women to either succeed dramatically or flop terribly. Peer pressure, especially when when I was a young military officer, was really hard. I was expected to fail and I really believe that I had to do more to get average marks. I certainly wouldn't discount peer pressure as a factor in this accident. I actually believe that it could have been a strong factor in causing this woman to do something that she may not have been entirely comfortable or ready for.
However, at this level of her training, she should have had the gumption and knowledge to be able decide if she was trained to handle such a dive. Should have but did she? Obviously, her instructors and dive partners should have also been capable of saying something,if they felt she wasn't capable. Clearly, they must have felt she was ready. However, maybe they didn't want to be the bad guys and tell her that she couldn't do something, perhaps because she didn't always respond to criticism kindly? It would be interesting to know more about the dynamics of this woman's training experiences, especially since there were some innuendos concerning her fears and noises that she made when nervous.
This is a very sad death and I do hope that it's not another situation where the diver just went to far too fast, simply because she could.

---------- Post added October 8th, 2013 at 12:23 PM ----------

I agree with Kate that this is certainly NOT the case. Far from it.

Should a student arrive for a course with a double bladder wing, the first thing we teach is to remove a second LP inflation hose. This type of incident was identified as a potential risk 15 ******* years ago, and although the protocol to disconnect the second inflator AND stow it so that it is NOT easy to confuse it with the active one may NOT be part of standards (that's a debatable point), it has been strongly suggested best practice in every instructor workshop I've been involved with.

And for the record, I have NO PROBLEM teaching non-standard tec programs if inane practices such as allowing divers to have convoluted gear configurations is ANYWHERE considered standard.

Any idea what agency taught this woman? I'm surprised I haven't seen anything about this accident on the technical sites. I've been watching for it and nothing...

 

[Doppler]

I was taught redundant buoyancy.


on open circuit in a wetsuit this means a double bladder wing.

And that's very fine and good and follows standards... however, if you were taught to have BOTH inflators connected via LP hoses to a high-volume gas source, READ THIS THREAD AND ACT ACCORDINGLY.

Having a double wing is your choice, and I am not about to question you about it (although I have some reservations about deep dives in a wetsuit), HOWEVER having both inflators connected is a practice I'll go on record as telling you is a bloody foolish thing to do and contrary to common sense. The perceived benefits are eclipsed by the potential for... well, read this thread.

 

[mala]

And that's very fine and good and follows standards... however, if you were taught to have BOTH inflators connected via LP hoses to a high-volume gas source, READ THIS THREAD AND ACT ACCORDINGLY.

Having a double wing is your choice, and I am not about to question you about it (although I have some reservations about deep dives in a wetsuit), HOWEVER having both inflators connected is a practice I'll go on record as telling you is a bloody foolish thing to do and contrary to common sense. The perceived benefits are eclipsed by the potential for... well, read this thread.

management of a twin bladder wing is of course part of basic tech training.(in warm water)

it appears this is not always the case in the states?

 

[Doppler]

management of a twin bladder wing is of course part of basic tech training.(in warm water)

it appears this is not always the case in the states?

I teach in the US, Canada, Europe and Asia, in hot, warm, tepid and cold water and I would not say that twin bladders are part of basic training anywhere. When a dual bladder is employed -- and I have had students, instructors and instructor-trainers use them -- it is important that they understand that the "backup" is not connected.

To belabor the point. A dual-bladder wing does not guarantee redundant buoyancy. A poorly maintained and inspected primary bladder usually means a poorly maintained and inspected secondary.

BUT, let's do a quick disaster scenario speculation. A WHAT IF... if you like.


Under what circumstances do you imagine a dual wing would be of primary use?

I cannot think of one... perhaps because in more than 20 years of technical diving, I have never had a wing rupture or fail... maybe I am lucky MAYBE I INSPECT MY **** BEFORE I DIVE because while I don't trust it implicitly, my kit tends to behave itself. I still don't cut it any slack, but it tends not to go pear-shaped on a dive.

YOUR MILEAGE may vary. SO tell us about all the times your wing has failed and your backup has come to the rescue... You can even cheat. Ask you friggin' instructor for a list of instances.

The take-home message is when inspected as part of the pre-dive checks, wings do not magically give up the ****ing ghost and fail.

I have had a dump valve go... I took it out BEFORE the dive to test what would happen. Apart from having to swim out of trim, nothing changed.

NOW the weakest link in the chain of doohickeys that keep a wing functioning is that stupid #*#*#*#*# plastic elbow thing that joins the inflator hose to the body of the wing. (ANY EQUIPMENT manufacturer that starts to use a load bearing alloy for this failure point instead of plastic gets my endorsement, by the way... if you are listening Nick, Chris.)

The simple counter for that is to put the elbow at the bottom of the wing where the dump valve is in the Traditional North Florida Cave Rig... IT IS PROTECTED DOWN THERE. If you dive a traditional wing, think about doing that. It works and I can prove it by pointing out that it is already done that way in even the cheesiest SM harness.


OK, balls in your court. I teach divers to have some form of redundant buoyancy (DSMB, DRYSUIT, BUDDY) but apart from when I make them deploy it during training (will one of my students please chime in here and explain how you can hold on to your buddy and get a "lift" to the surface), I am unaware of any real-world instance where wing failure HAS ****ING KILLED SOMEONE. I am aware of at least TWO instances where connecting BOTH LP inflators on a dual-bladder wing has killed people.

WHAT DO YOU THINK I will continue to promote... in ANY temperature water?

By the way, totally off-topic, but I used to live in Worting and went to school in Basingstoke... what part of Hampshire are you from! LOL

 

[mala]

I agree with your summary.

my point was that on tech courses where I was using a dual bladder full training was given as a normal part of the course.

I personally don't like them and have never owed one.

 

[PfcAJ]

Certainly not always the case. I took a tech class in south Florida, and being able to swim the rig up was the move. No 2nd wing or drysuit needed.