Bad vis. How bad is too bad?

[azchipka]

If I can't be between 2 divers and see them both, it's not good enough to teach (unless we go to 1-on-1!!).

I usually keep the rule of # of students is less than or equal to # of supervising hands (and that's "Hands", not "supervisors").

I can keep them safe, but my main concern in low viz is then how the student is going to perceive diving after this.

Not a great sales card for diving. I always encourage a quick trip to Coz to see how nice it can be.

I use basically the same guidelines as above for training purposes.

 

[highdesert]

OK, bring it on ...

I dive to see the sights, and with a bit of luck, maybe come back with a few good pictures. Am I a weenie by the standards of many on the 'board? Probably. But I have absolutely no problems with that. I woud personally rahter not dive than grope around seeing only that which was within my reach, or a bit beyond. I have no qualms with those who enjoy (?) diving in limited viz ... I just don't want to do it. YMMV.

PS - I have no doubt that Jim produces extremely competent divers, and I respect that ... just posting a personal opinion.

 

[kanonfodr]

Wow, you folks are exceptionally...hardy. Anything less than 10' vis and I'm not even gonna try. 10-20 is my limit, below that it's not that much fun because I like to see things and I won't see much if everything is in a big cloud. Plus not many of my buddies are comfortable in that kind of vis, and I don't want to be responsible for a basket-case, I'd rather turn the dive.

Peace,
Greg

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Wow, you folks are exceptionally...hardy. Anything less than 10' vis and I'm not even gonna try. 10-20 is my limit, below that it's not that much fun because I like to see things and I won't see much if everything is in a big cloud. Plus not many of my buddies are comfortable in that kind of vis, and I don't want to be responsible for a basket-case, I'd rather turn the dive.

Peace,
Greg

One of the most important skills a diver has is the good sense to call a dive when conditions aren't "right" for them! No recriminations, no questions asked, no chest thumping.. and no ego involved!

Divers that are confident enough to call a dive are divers that will dive another day when conditions are right!:blinking:

 

[D_B]

I didn't answer the poll because I think it depends ... If the question is in reference to OW training and not personal limits (and I think it is) ... I think that an instructor should be able to see all his students at all times , having DM('s) to help does not remove that consideration.
An advanced class could be more lenient in that regard if the instructor is familiar with students/skills or have seen them dive first

 

[Walter]

I woud personally rahter not dive than grope around seeing only that which was within my reach, or a bit beyond.

Anything less than 10' vis and I'm not even gonna try. 10-20 is my limit, below that it's not that much fun because I like to see things

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the outlook you two share. I once shared it as well. Then I started collecting fossils. Where I collect fossils, 6 ft visibility is fairly average. A great day is 10 - 15 ft. I encountered 30 feet one time (hundreds of dives there) in October 1998. It's quite common to have visibility measured in inches. I've found that when my goal is to find fossils, I do really well if the visibility is at least 2 feet. If the visibility is 2 feet or greater, I have a grand time. If I'm diving a reef and sightseeing, I don't enjoy low (less than 10 feet) visibility either.

If the question is in reference to OW training and not personal limits (and I think it is) ... I think that an instructor should be able to see all his students at all times , having DM('s) to help does not remove that consideration.

I agree.

An advanced class could be more lenient in that regard if the instructor is familiar with students/skills or have seen them dive first

I disagree. Ya gotta be able to see all your students, even advanced students.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I didn't answer the poll because I think it depends ... If the question is in reference to OW training and not personal limits (and I think it is) ... I think that an instructor should be able to see all his students at all times , having DM('s) to help does not remove that consideration.
An advanced class could be more lenient in that regard if the instructor is familiar with students/skills or have seen them dive first

This is how my ow classes are done. I also do not have an assistant yet so when vis gets low I reduce the number of divers in the water. My usual practice for the first two dives is to only take one buddy pair at a time. Regardless of vis. If I am sure that there is no reason to think otherwise I may take 4 divers on dive number 4 and have them switch buddies during the dive. This reinforces the idea of staying close. I will not take all 4 if I personally cannot see everyone at once. Also stressed in doing this is the idea that the slowest diver sets the pace for the entire group but it does not relieve anyone of the responsibility of staying within arms reach or closer of their assigned buddy. At no time is herd or single file diving acceptable. For aow I only take two or in rare cases 3 divers per class. Buddy separation is not only unacceptable at this level but more than one occurrence of it is grounds for failing the class.

 

[LoonDiver]

Okay, I'm responding to the hijacked sub-thread here:

Instead of pairs, it was more like follow the leader.

That's how my OW cert dives were...herding cats is a great analogy. Buddy awareness wasn't really stressed.

Anyway, when we first started to desend my daughters ears would not clear, so we surfaced, inst and the whole class was gone. Inst did not return for maybe 5-10 min to see what our issue was. Thankfully I was with my daughter, as to have that happen alone and being 12 would have been scary at best. I could tell the inst was getting annoyed with us as we could not get her under without her ears hurting.

Wow! This behavior on the part of the instructor is irresponsible and inexcusable! The instructor or at least an assistant instructor should have surfaced with you, not several minutes later! And who was watching the class when he surfaced to find you? Did you even have any assistants or DMs with you? And he got "annoyed" because your daughter had problems??!! What a jerk!!!

We surfaced as a class right then and I did not see my daughter, I asked the class and no one answered or felt it was an issue, now in kind of a slight panic I went back under to see it I could see her, nothing, I surfaced, asked again, asked the inst. as which point he joined me in trying to find her. Point being inst did not notice, class did not notice, only me, her mom and buddy. I finally saw her, she had thought she was following a guy from our class over to the shore, when she surfaced she realized it was not that guy and know she is trying to find our group. Needless to say, OW class was very stressful for us.

I'm speechless...instructor negligence anyone?

Even after all of this, she wants to go on to AOW and I told her that she HAD to take rescue. No if and or buts. I will do the same. I will and have started to look for a new LDS and inst.

Good for you insisting on the rescue class! (and new instructor!!!) I'll plug Jim here and say that after reading many of his posts on ScubaBoard, I realize how sorely lacking my own OW training was. We're about a five hour drive from where he is in Pennsylvania, but we've decided to make the drive to get to him for some "catchup" training in the not too distant future. Just need to work out a schedule with Jim where we can have him for a couple of days at a time...

 

[tddfleming]

Glad to see this getting back to normal.

Loondiver: we did not have a helper in the beginning, she was off with the AOW class. It was only the main inst. And to answer your question, no one was with the rest of the class when he came back to find us. We were told that the fish really like Cheese Whiz, so we went to Walmart that night and after we finished our last OW dive, we played in the shallow part of the quarry, I let her plan what we were going to do, and go, had a good time. But the best part was feeding the fish the Cheese Whiz. They loved it, I think they were even drooling Would not do that any in other UW enviroment, but there everyone seems to do it and the fish follow you with their mouths hanging open. I know the class was lacking from the pool work, but then we got another inst and I thought well I am glad we got another person, things should be better. I guessed wrong. Like you I do not know how good or bad things were until it was done and you learn more about what is correct and not correct. I do believe that the inst we had were there for the discounts they got from the LDS only. As I heard that mentioned a few times in class, "how good the discounts are." We are just going to take a few steps back in order to move a few steps forward. Better safe than sorry.

Side note: Where in OH are you from? I am org. from Columbus, on the west side and Hilliard area. Husbands from the Cleveland area. I am dying for a Massys pizza!!!!

 

[Rubber Duckie]

My last open water dive was in low viz, about 2-4 ft. There was only 2 of us students though. After doing skills on a platform we followed the instructor with one of us on each side of him and with a dive master behind us. It was a good experience diving in low viz. We now dive often in a lake that has low viz above about 60ft with no problem.