BC manufacturers must be Raking it in...

[Thalassamania]

Large opening orders, and reorders is used as a means to exclude other brands from competing.

If a shop has to invest $10-40K in a particular brand / line of goods, and needs to generate $XX dollars to be able to reorder they have a huge disincentive to offer any other brand.

Few LDS can afford to carry multiple lines of competitive products.

Lets say you want to open a dive shop. You need to be able offer regulators, BC's exposure suits, masks, fins, instruments and tanks.

It helps if you can offer a name brand regulator, but to be able to do so the regulator company will require (via opening order requirements) that you also carry their BC's and Instruments, exposure suits etc.

Once you pony up there are scant few dollars left in the "open to buy budget" to stock other BC's, or other Instruments, particularly if these "others" also demand a large opening order.

Some will argue that's done to ensure the customer has access to the complete line offered by a given brand, and that the store staff be familiar with the entire line. Maybe, but the real reason is to limit competition.

Tobin

I think that Tobin is right on the mark. One of the best ways that specialty manufacturers could help themselves would be to recognize the value of keyman programs that the majors have. It's pretty hard to sell, say, a DSS BP/w when the instructional staff is decked out, head to toe in, say, MARES gear. Most specialty manufacturers are not as aggressive as the full line guys in either publicizing, operating or pricing their keyman programs.

 

[fireflock]

I think that Tobin is right on the mark. One of the best ways that specialty manufacturers could help themselves would be to recognize the value of keyman programs that the majors have. It's pretty hard to sell, say, a DSS BP/w when the instructional staff is decked out, head to toe in, say, MARES gear. Most specialty manufacturers are not as aggressive as the full line guys in either publicizing, operating or pricing their keyman programs.

Spoken like a true keyman. IMO, one of the things that turns divers off to their local dive shop is the feeling (valid or not) that the high prices they pay for gear and trips are subsidizing the gear and travel of the people at the shop.

The entire dive industry seems at times to be something of a pyramid scheme or shell game. I think that reminds customers of the car dealer and turns customers off.

Rich

 

[PhilEllis]

Spoken like a true keyman. IMO, one of the things that turns divers off to their local dive shop is the feeling (valid or not) that the high prices they pay for gear and trips are subsidizing the gear and travel of the people at the shop.

The entire dive industry seems at times to be something of a pyramid scheme or shell game. I think that reminds customers of the car dealer and turns customers off.

Rich

When my employees travel with a group, work with students, or do any other thing as the store representative on a organized outing, they are not going diving, they are working. Their scuba gear is simply a tool of their trade. I don't think that particular issue confuses my customers at all. However, I see that if could really be an issue if the shop person on a trip really doesn't "work" to assist the customers, but only uses the trip as another opportunity to go diving.

Phil Ellis

 

[MikeFerrara]

I should just rest my case on this remark alone!

Why is it, and this is starting to get "off topic", that we feel everyone must dive what we dive or it's "junk"? Why must everyone else use the same paradigm we use for diving or somehow they are inherently flawed?

When I ran a student machine shop for the College of Architecture for the University of Florida, I would teach students how to use the band saw (among other tools). Then I would just listen to the tool as they worked. Quite often I would remind the student "It's not the tool!" So it is with diving. Gear won't make up for poor skills and excellent skills will make any type of gear look great! IOW, "junk" is in the eye of the beholder! If you don't dive it, it's probably "junk".

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I thought I gave some pretty specific reasons why I think some gear is junk. I don't think it's junk because I don't dive with it. On the contrary, I don't dive with it because I think it's junk. I don't care what gear anybody dives with.

Gear won't make up for poor skills but poor equipment can sure make it hard to develop good skills.

Tools don't make the craftsman but poor tools sure can make his/her job harder. For my work, I buy and use what I believe to be good tools. I did the same when my work was diving. Not all the tools on the market are good. There is some real junk out there.

Since we're swapping shop stories. Not long I got a call from a lady who has a miniature horse she wanted trimmed (I'm shoeing horses these days) and nobody wanted to do it (they're too small to be any fun to work on). She had been trying to do it herself but wasn't getting anywhere. I took a ride over to see what was going on. She had baught some farrier tools from a local farm supply because she thought they were inexpensive and that they would be good enough. With her less than developed skill there is no way she could have ever gotten the job done with those dull useless tools. To expect someone to learn using those useless tools would be silly. I've been doing this a long time and I might be able to struggle through with them but why would I want to? As it turns out she actually paid almost twice as much for those junk tools as I do for my good ones and then she had to pay me to do the work.

It's not much different in diving. It's usually the novice who doesn't know any better than ends up with junk tools.

 

[raymond phule]

It's an age thing. Scuba is ~60 years old, paragliding is much more recent.

In the early days of any sport (or any activity really) you will see small firms with competing ideas, some good, some less so.
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The early days see a lot of changes. As these ideas converge into the 2-3 that survive, and the survivors get larger and more dominate, you see much less innovation.

If paragliding grows in popularity I'd expect the same thing to occur. Enjoy the diversity while you can.

Yes, this is definitely kind of true. A lot happens in a new activity. I still belive it is different in diving compared to other sports. Skiing are an old activity but there are still innovation, like twin tip and carving skis, and people want the newest ski.

The difference between diving and ever other activity I know about is that a couple of of organisations (mainly padi) control what gear is right to a large degree. They control the whole system with stores and courses. A new innovation must first get into thier manuals before most divers get to know about them. I dont belive this is a fast system and I dont belive padi care as long as they make money. A ski manufacturer try to sell the concept to skiers and the instruktors have to follow. A dive gear manufacturer need to sell the concept it to an organisation and instructors. It is large difference here.

nitrox seems to be an example of this and people say that padi didn't want it until they understood that they could get money from it. A similar concept to nitrox in skiing would probably be popular faster.

The padi dive concept right now needs a lot of instructors, a lot of stores that earn money on gear sales and fast courses to get new gear byers. I dont belive that it is that strange that the price in the store might be high.

 

[friscuba]

You're the expert. But I look at my Pioneer 27 and my kid's school backpacks....material wise, there can't be a huge difference in price. The Pioneer is heavier material, has a bladder....that leaks in my case, and the fittings for the inflator and dump releases. The backpacks have multiple compartments and zippers and padded shoulder straps etc. The Pioneer was over $300. $150 will get a very nice backpack.
If you cranked out 4000 wings per day, it would drop your production cost. That's all I'm saying.

Edited after reading the remainder of the thread... already covered

 

[fireflock]

When my employees travel with a group, work with students, or do any other thing as the store representative on a organized outing, they are not going diving, they are working. Their scuba gear is simply a tool of their trade. I don't think that particular issue confuses my customers at all. However, I see that if could really be an issue if the shop person on a trip really doesn't "work" to assist the customers, but only uses the trip as another opportunity to go diving.

Phil Ellis

I understand. That's one reason I threw in (valid or not). I also know that as nothing more than a regular customer, I've had more than one other regular customer say something along the lines of 'I'm not sure why I signed up for this with the shop. I could do it cheaper myself and not be paying for xxxx (insert DM name) to go diving for free.

Personally, I think keeping a group of new divers headed in the right direction without hurting themselves or others is work. At the same time, local shops are always wondering why their customers are leaving and for at least some customers, the perception of special pricing for certain groups is one reason why.

Rich

 

[The Chairman]

Gear won't make up for poor skills but poor equipment can sure make it hard to develop good skills.

I guess it depends on the instructor! My students don't seem to have an issue with this!

 

[MikeFerrara]

Large opening orders, and reorders is used as a means to exclude other brands from competing.

If a shop has to invest $10-40K in a particular brand / line of goods, and needs to generate $XX dollars to be able to reorder they have a huge disincentive to offer any other brand.

Few LDS can afford to carry multiple lines of competitive products.

Lets say you want to open a dive shop. You need to be able offer regulators, BC's exposure suits, masks, fins, instruments and tanks.

It helps if you can offer a name brand regulator, but to be able to do so the regulator company will require (via opening order requirements) that you also carry their BC's and Instruments, exposure suits etc.

Once you pony up there are scant few dollars left in the "open to buy budget" to stock other BC's, or other Instruments, particularly if these "others" also demand a large opening order.

Some will argue that's done to ensure the customer has access to the complete line offered by a given brand, and that the store staff be familiar with the entire line. Maybe, but the real reason is to limit competition.

Tobin

LOL, that's pretty much the way I remember things.

I think they do it for several reasons. One is like thal mentioned, to keep the instructor from selling out of his trunk...they also often want to "inspect" a store before they put you on as a dealer. Another reason is that it's guaranteed sales. The other is simply that they are in a position to make the rules. Instead of you telling them what they must do in order to be granted shelf space in your store, they tell you what kind of shelf space you will give them in order to be granted a dealership.

Without doubt some of these manufacturers do NOT treat the dive shop as a customer. They treat the shop as an employee. The agency and the manufacurers tell you how you are going to run your business and the customer tells you how they want you to do it. LOL I have never been anyplace in my life where I had less say about what was going on than I had when standing in a dive shop that I owned.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Originally Posted by MikeFerrara
Gear won't make up for poor skills but poor equipment can sure make it hard to develop good skills.

I guess it depends on the instructor! My students don't seem to have an issue with this!

Why would you put them in poor equipment:no I provided good equipment for my students so they didn't have an issue either.