Best alternate air configuration

[Albion]

First the ground rules
I am talking about general recreational diving, using single tanks and no penetration.
Ok in an ideal world you are diving with an experienced buddy you are familiar with and who won’t run out of air and if he/she did, then they know what to do, but what if some inexperienced diver finds you closer than his buddy when the unexpected happens

IMHO

Forth place – conventional set up two regs with standard length hoses, one in your mouth and one in the magic triangle zone. This seems the worst configuration but the one most divers use. The other diver is out of air and maybe hasn’t attracted your attention in time, he swims towards you and sees a reg in your mouth, the spare is probably stuck in a pocket out of the way, or with the mouth piece stuffed into one of those red ball things or somewhere else where it wont dangle, and / or possible full of sand or other such. His first choice is going to be the one in your mouth leaving you to find the afore mentioned spare.
Plusses – easy to swap regs sets around

Third Place – DIR - main reg on a long hose up your body and round your neck, spare on a necklace. Same situation as above diver comes at you grabs the one in your mouth, you can easily find the spare, but find yourself either strung up nicely with reg hose round your neck like a nose, or looking at the fins of a panicked diver heading to the surface on the end of 7ft of hose.
Plusses – low entanglement / dragging items

Second place – main reg in your mouth, spare reg on the inflator AIR2 / Octo+ style. Diver panics grabs your main reg, you reach out with left hand to the inflator that is always where it is, and stick it in your mouth. The other diver is still close so you can get control of him.
Plusses – less hoses = less clutter and risk of dangling equipment.
also being an inflator means this piece of kit is regularly used, I use mine most dives to inflate my SMB.
Minus – it is always attached to BCD so may suffer damage from being thrown around. (Lower reliability – mine has been working for 6 years without problem, it’s not an issue)

First place – complete redundant tank and reg system.

Other things to consider - 2nd stage failure, what is there to fail, the worst should be a free flow, which you can still breath from. So unless your buddy is out of air your spare reg should not be required by you. It is more likely that a 1st stage would fail, in which case both your 2nd stage regs are dead

Opinion / Flames please!

 

[MonkSeal]

Albion once bubbled...

Forth place – conventional set up two regs with standard length hoses, one in your mouth and one in the magic triangle zone.

One 1st stage and 2 seconds on standard hoses is proven as best for recreational diving. Octo can't be stuck in pocket or unreachable or full of sand or whatever.

Third Place – DIR

If you use DIR way of routing hoses than you can't be strung with your primary hose because when you reach for the octo, primary hose won't be around your neck.

Second place – AIR2 / Octo+ style

I don't use this so I can comment.

First place – complete redundant tank and reg system

For recreational diving ? Where this should be located ? If your hypothetical diver can't be sure if his octo is reachable and clean, how will he handle redundant tank ?

So unless your buddy is out of air your spare reg should not be required by you.

IMHO Buddy OOA situation is one of main reasons why spare reg is used. And if this was the only reason this should be enough.

It is more likely that a 1st stage would fail, in which case both your 2nd stage regs are dead.

That's why you have a buddy.


MonkSeal

 

[RICHinNC]

It is the old chevy ...ford....question. Depends on what you like...and what you like may change with time.

I am a major believer in redundancy and therefore I dive with a pony bottle.....every dive.....30 ft....or ...100 ft. I like the integrated air source that I ordered with my SeaQuest Pro QD. It cuts down the extra reg i would have hanging considering the pony. If you are not going with an integrated airsource of some brand.....then the rest to me is just hose length and how you mount it.

I have been lucky....and careful enough....to never run out of air and never had a reg/valve failure...and never seen the white of their eyes as they panicked and came for my primary. So I am just going on what feels comfortable and safe for me. Believing one must be able to be self sufficient before they can ever assist someone else......big believer in redundancy. Stay away from Spare Air if you decide to go that way....go full pony bottle.

 

[annie]

I have my alternate reg in a yellow ball thing and I don't see any problem with that . . .

Redundant: I think you should assume that most rec divers aren't going to go with redundant tank and air system.

DIR set up: Also assume that they won't have a DIR set up unless they are a DIR diver - I'm not sure what the chances of that are but I don't count on running into one anytime soon.

AIRII styles - I don't use one and personally don't like the sound of it because I can't imagine breathing off it and using my inflator simultaneously. It's not the standard most divers are familiar with. I dived with a guy once who owned one of these and told me that in an OOA situation, I was supposed to breathe off his AIRII (i had no idea how to use it or whether I had to press buttons) - some people buying these think this is the right procedure! A question about these - isn't the hose on a primary reg too short to be donating it to someone (if you want to face them)? I've been on people's alternate air sources before and there's not much room/slack even on those longer hoses.

So for me anyway, that really leaves the standard set up.

 

[Diver0001]

Albion once bubbled...
First the ground rules
I am talking about general recreational diving, using single tanks and no penetration.
Ok in an ideal world you are diving with an experienced buddy you are familiar with and who won’t run out of air and if he/she did, then they know what to do, but what if some inexperienced diver finds you closer than his buddy when the unexpected happens

IMHO

Forth place – conventional set up two regs with standard length hoses, one in your mouth and one in the magic triangle zone. This seems the worst configuration but the one most divers use. The other diver is out of air and maybe hasn’t attracted your attention in time, he swims towards you and sees a reg in your mouth, the spare is probably stuck in a pocket out of the way, or with the mouth piece stuffed into one of those red ball things or somewhere else where it wont dangle, and / or possible full of sand or other such. His first choice is going to be the one in your mouth leaving you to find the afore mentioned spare.
Plusses – easy to swap regs sets around

Third Place – DIR - main reg on a long hose up your body and round your neck, spare on a necklace. Same situation as above diver comes at you grabs the one in your mouth, you can easily find the spare, but find yourself either strung up nicely with reg hose round your neck like a nose, or looking at the fins of a panicked diver heading to the surface on the end of 7ft of hose.
Plusses – low entanglement / dragging items

Second place – main reg in your mouth, spare reg on the inflator AIR2 / Octo+ style. Diver panics grabs your main reg, you reach out with left hand to the inflator that is always where it is, and stick it in your mouth. The other diver is still close so you can get control of him.
Plusses – less hoses = less clutter and risk of dangling equipment.
also being an inflator means this piece of kit is regularly used, I use mine most dives to inflate my SMB.
Minus – it is always attached to BCD so may suffer damage from being thrown around. (Lower reliability – mine has been working for 6 years without problem, it’s not an issue)

First place – complete redundant tank and reg system.

Other things to consider - 2nd stage failure, what is there to fail, the worst should be a free flow, which you can still breath from. So unless your buddy is out of air your spare reg should not be required by you. It is more likely that a 1st stage would fail, in which case both your 2nd stage regs are dead

Opinion / Flames please!

\

I'm in the position of having tried all of the above at various points in time. I can make a couple of comments.

First the standard setup works. Almost everyone gets trained on how to go about sharing air with teh standard setup and that's a major advantage. This is a benefit that should be mentioned. The major disadvantage that I see with the standard setup is that you are not 100% where your octopus is at every moment. They can become dislodged from their retainers, often without the diver knowing it.

Secondly the DIR setup that you've listed in third place is much better than you give it credit for. The main disadvantage that you list are that the hose can get wrapped around your neck and the other diver can be too far away to help them. On the first point it seems next to impossible to me to really get the hose so tight around your neck that you can't just slip it off or turn out of it. And on the other point if the diver is too far away you can just pull him in by the hose. If he thinks he's going to lose the reg he *will* come to you... . Moreover you should train to maintain contact during buddy breathing so this doesn't happen to begin with. There is another major advantage to this system, which is that you are always 100% that your octopus is where you think it is.

Thirdly, the AirII you mentioned has the advantages and disadvantages that you mentioned, but I'll add these to the list. Other disadvantages are the added complexity of venting while ascending and the stiffness of the AirII as compared to a regular octopus. The other advantage that I see is you're always 100% sure of where your octopus is.

And the last option, the pony bottle, is a solution that I believe has a couple of pitfalls too which mostly have to do with having the dicipline to use it the right way every time but on balance I also think it's the best option.

R..

 

[MikeFerrara]

The problems I see with a standard set up is that the alternate hose is too short for comfortable air sharing. Even if you secure the alternate the hoses are a mess and stuck out everywhere. This represents more drag than you might think besides being just plain sloppy. Another problem is that the alternates seem to come out of their holder all the time. If I han a nickle for every diver I see with the alternate just hanging I could retire.

IMO, the airII things are cheap junk and just a gimick. The one time I seen it used for real the the guy kept reaching for his deflator and couldn't find it because it was in his mouth. I know for a fact that he practiced with it because he was one of my Divemasters and I made him. The fact is that your left hand is always reaching for the inflate/deflate valve in the same place and when the dive gets messy my money says that your hand will look there again. Another disadvantage is it forces you to use an inflator hose that's too long. Of course most divers are using inflator hoses that are way too long anyway. Again it's just another sloppy thing to hang, drag and get in the way.

 

[Waterlover]

Get rid of your little yellow ball thingy(scum ball as we call them). This can trap air in it allowing the regulator to free flow at depth allowing you to loose gas without knowing it.If you decide to still use it be aware to check it at depth to make sure it's not free flowing. A better place is a necklace under your chin.
Dive Safe

 

[Northeastwrecks]

MonkSeal once bubbled...
Albion once bubbled...

One 1st stage and 2 seconds on standard hoses is proven as best for recreational diving. Octo can't be stuck in pocket or unreachable or full of sand or whatever.


snip

MonkSeal

Proven? By whom? Care to back that claptrap up?

 

[MikeS]

Albion,

Just out of curiosity, what is the basis of ranking; cost, safety, convenience, or practicality?

IMHO, first place based on safety is diving with a long hose and redundant SCUBA.

I would like to point out that the long hose with bungeed backup was not invented by DIR and as such, it would be great to leave DIR out of the discussion for once. The long hose is simply the best way to share air. No amount of on-line discussion can substitute for trying it. Try an OOA drill with a traditional octo setup and then with the long hose and bungeed backup. In both cases, swim horizontal and make a controlled ascent. Granted there is no free lunch and you will now look different and have to remember to remove the bungee before you take your BC off but to my mind, it’s well worth it.

As far as redundant SCUBA, although I’ve never dove with them, I’d have to say that doubles with an isolation manifold and the proper training is the safest option. In my case, I’ve made a trade off based on cost and practicality and chosen to dive with a staged rigged pony on dives deeper that 60 feet. It’s a trade off that I can live with but I’m sure I’ll want to readdress the situation if I ever do penetration or planned decompression diving.

Mike

 

[annie]

Hi

Wouldn't air leak out of the yellow ball if the reg was free flowing? it's only a small air space.
I don't know how to do the necklace thing, unless I get trained in DIR (isn't that a DIR thing?)

Annie