Best type of Pony Tank setup?

[DA Aquamaster]

Personally, I think relying on a buddy for your redudant air supply is just plain stupid. Where I dive 10 ft visibility is good and visibility can quickly get worse. Despite the best of intentions, one distraction or wayward cloud of silt is all it takes for your buddy, and your redundant air supply, to get separated from you.

And in cold water, the risk of a free flow due to a frozen reg increases dramatically with another diver breathing off the reg, particularly a semi-panicked oxygen indebted diver. That leaves both of you of increased risk of freeflowing your only remaining air supply.

I agree that a pony bottle requires careful consideration before you include it in your configuration, but boiler plate platitudes and condemnations of pony bottles just do not cut it. They are just narroew minded opinions expressed by persons who would prefer the rest of the world think just like they do. The fact remains that there are situations where pony bottles make perfect sense and where they are the simplest and most elegant solution to a specific need for redundancy.

I do not agree that a pony is not suitable for any overhead diving situation. A pony makes sense for deep dives on a single tank or even on a deco dive where the ascent and deco obligations are easily met with a 30 cu ft pony. It offers excellent redundancy in the event the primary air supply needed to finish the dive as well as the one third reserve is lost.

The range may well be "narrow" in some people's narrow view of the world, but even within that restricted range, the pony can be a very valuable thing to have along on a dive.

 

[MikeFerrara]

as someone stated here in the north east you have to have a redundant air system to get on any boat.
in reality when you go wreck diving here you are solo diving and I am sure there can be good dicussions on that!
I like the story about the spare tire you can apply that directly to the pony bottle.
would you leave your spare tire at home?
why have one takes up to much room,
extra cost?
and you might just let the tires wear longer on the car knowing you have a spare!
how does that sound?

I don't think that's the argument at all. Keep your spare tire. When a dive calls for redundance it certainly makes sense to have it.
But I want mine in a configuration that's dependable and usable procedurally. Not another clump of entanglement hazard on my back with a valve that I can't reach with a third second stage plastered to my chest someplace where it's likely to come lose and/or leak out all that reserve gas without me knowing it.

Even when we carry a slung stage or decompression bottle the valve is OFF when the gas isn't in use. That's to make sure there's gas there when we need it.

Don't just look at the virtue of having a redundant gas supply. Look at all the effects on your equipment configuration and it's effects on the procedures you'll use and the reliability of those procedures.

IMO, pony bottles are most often used to allow divers to do dives that are better done with a total change of approach. Most often they just further botch up an already botched up configuration and stratagy.

Also, IMO, just because some boats require a pony bottle as minimum redundancy doesn't imply that even they feel that it's the best solution. It seems more like a bandaid for people who insist on doing dives that are beyond the crews confidence in a recreational set up while still allowing them to fill the boat.

 

[TechBlue]

Unfortunately EGO and resistance to change causes a lot of the misconceptions in equipment configuration, the pony and Christmas tree configurations were developed in the NE and you will hear, "I have 1,000's of dives under my belt and this works for me."
Change is good, as diving has developed so has the level and complexity of deep penetration dives wether it be cave or wreck the limits are constantly being pushed and people are making it back in one piece. Mainly because as we progress hopefully we learn from ours and others mistakes. The same applies to configurations, just because "it works" doesn't mean it is the best or safest. Slinging a stage has been shown to have multiple advantages as opposed to the pony which is purely a redundant air source which may or may not work when you need it. As Mike says it really is just an addition to a sloppy config in most cases. The discussion is not about wether or not you carry a redundant gas supply but rather where you put it, in answerr to original question there isn't a good setup for a pony.

Chris

 

[MikeFerrara]

Personally, I think relying on a buddy for your redudant air supply is just plain stupid. Where I dive 10 ft visibility is good and visibility can quickly get worse. Despite the best of intentions, one distraction or wayward cloud of silt is all it takes for your buddy, and your redundant air supply, to get separated from you.

And in cold water, the risk of a free flow due to a frozen reg increases dramatically with another diver breathing off the reg, particularly a semi-panicked oxygen indebted diver. That leaves both of you of increased risk of freeflowing your only remaining air supply.

The nicest solution to the most common failures, including free flows, would seem to be to just shut down that reg and switch to another that still provides access to the same gas supply. That way you won't have abandon the buddy you misplaced when you run for the surface.

I agree that a pony bottle requires careful consideration before you include it in your configuration, but boiler plate platitudes and condemnations of pony bottles just do not cut it. They are just narroew minded opinions expressed by persons who would prefer the rest of the world think just like they do. The fact remains that there are situations where pony bottles make perfect sense and where they are the simplest and most elegant solution to a specific need for redundancy.

I for one admit to being narrow mined on the subject because it's, IMO, a simple problem with a simple solution. However I don't much care what the rest of the worls does or thinks. I can't imagine a pony bottle ever being an elegant solution. Well, maybe elegant like a role of duct tape. LOL

I do not agree that a pony is not suitable for any overhead diving situation. A pony makes sense for deep dives on a single tank or even on a deco dive where the ascent and deco obligations are easily met with a 30 cu ft pony. It offers excellent redundancy in the event the primary air supply needed to finish the dive as well as the one third reserve is lost.

Maybe it's deep dives with single tanks that don't make sense. If you're using the pony for decompression gas then it's a decompresion bottle and not a pony. Maybe you need to go into more detail on the gas management you have in mind

The range may well be "narrow" in some people's narrow view of the world, but even within that restricted range, the pony can be a very valuable thing to have along on a dive.

For being such a valuable thing, I manage to get by pretty well without one. I sure could use another set of doubles though.

 

[pipedope]

Deep, deco diving on a single tank is reducing safety.

Unless the single tank is big enough for all the gas needed for the dive, including deco and emergency supply, AND has a Y or H valve with redundant regulators, you are cutting corners. Now I support your right to cut corners if you want to but please understand that you ARE cutting corners.

Heck, if you want to do dives like that, independent doubles or sidemount doubles are going to be a better choice in all but a very few specialized cases.

10 feet of vis is not good, it is FANTASTIC. In 99% of my diving I would KILL for 10' vis. Good vis means that I can see something. Great vis means I can see it before I can touch it.

A pony bottle is NOT a substitute for proper gas planning.

Poor vis is not an excuse for poor buddy awareness. If you cannot keep track of your buddy during the dive then you are diving solo, or should be solo.
Diving solo is better than loosing your buddy.
In really poor vis, a tender is better than a buddy.

 

[landfish]

i aggree with the whole idea of planing your dive and planning it well
you have to run every type of situation in your head and be prepared for what might happen.
depending on what type of diving you do and how you plan it and where you dive is what type of equiptment you should have on your back?
a 120 single for someone with a.5 sac or less would work fine DEPENDING ONCE AGAIN on what and where you are diving.but adding a pony to a 120 i cant see how that could make it more bulky or get you to be intangled more then having two 120's on your back?
havent you seen the guys with doubles and a pony mounted inbetween the doubles and a deco tank on their side?
going deep and long you need gas.
the best way i found around all this is go rebreather!

 

[TechBlue]

You still need to sling stages or carry sufficient bailout using a rebreather, your gas management and skillsets get even more critical.

 

[pipedope]

If you get careless.

Like I said, evaluate the gear and techniques for each dive. Make the best choices you can and then enjoy the dive and come home alive to dive another day.

 

[bwerb]

Pony Bottles can be psychological enablements for the untrained, unskilled, unthinking, unprepared and/or unsure.

Spare Air provides the same in a much smaller package.

So...that's a good thing...right?? Where do I sign-up?

LOL!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

The nicest solution to the most common failures, including free flows, would seem to be to just shut down that reg and switch to another that still provides access to the same gas supply. That way you won't have abandon the buddy you misplaced when you run for the surface.

I agree with you, that works well if you have doubles, and in my opinion even better with independent doubels as I you then do not have to worry about shutting down the frozen reg - it's nice to do it but not neccesary.

But we are not talking about divers with doubles here. For the average rec diver, it is far simpler for them to switch to the pony in the case of a large regulator malfunction and to complete a normal ascent. It is a much more elegant recreational solution. There is a lot to be said for tech diving and technical diving techiques and configurations, but they are not always realistic or ideal for recreational situations. And nobody said anything about "running for the surface" and abandoning your buddy - assuming he is even around to know there is a problem.

I for one admit to being narrow minded on the subject because it's, IMO, a simple problem with a simple solution. However I don't much care what the rest of the world does or thinks. I can't imagine a pony bottle ever being an elegant solution. Well, maybe elegant like a role of duct tape. LOL

Thanks for your opinon Mike. Everybody has one but that doesn't make it right, and certainly does not make it right for every situation.

Maybe it's deep dives with single tanks that don't make sense. If you're using the pony for decompression gas then it's a decompresion bottle and not a pony. Maybe you need to go into more detail on the gas management you have in mind

Read my post again, it was pretty clear. The air in the pony is not considered in the gas planning, it's just there for redundancy. Many short dives to 100-130' can be done on a single tank and a pony is a viable alternative to a set of doubles for a redundant air supply. It is also preferable and far safer than relying on an unreliable buddy.

For being such a valuable thing, I manage to get by pretty well without one. I sure could use another set of doubles though.

Mike, I personally like doubles because I also like to go deep and do planned decompression. I have not used a pony in years as it was no longer ideal for the type of diving I do. But because I no longer use one does not mean a pony cannot be an optimum solution for someone else. I believe in informed choice and feel a diver is better served by making their own informed choices about their configuration than they are doing something just because Mike or Uncle Pug said so.