Boat diving.Do we have it all wrong?!

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The main question in that example is: did that diver know that he had a history of severe sea sickness and if so, did he take steps to minimize it?

There are big differences between someone with a condition known to them who can and does take steps to mitigate it but in an emergency might still need help, someone with a condition known to them who doesn't do anything, and someone who simply has a random sh*t day and needs help.

I have never met a diver, either online or in-person, who seems to fit in the second group. I know divers in the first, including myself and every single one of us is determined to be as independent as possible to get the job or the dive done with a minimum of aid from crew and buddies (beyond the basic requirements of the buddy system).

I understand and usually support the "if you can't meet these basic levels of fitness, you shouldn't dive because of the risk to yourself and others" but so far there seems to be more worry about divers taking advantage of the help that crew and buddies give and hoping things don't go wrong.

No previous history, I dived with him several times in the past in simillar conditions and never had a problem. Might have just been a bad day or something he ate, we are unsure.

Unfortunately I can say I have met people that fit in the 2nd category you have described, albeit not many but they are out there.
Its the "that will never happen to me" approach they have which causes this.

I could be wrong but the impression I got from the thread and more specifically the person who wrote the thread is "I'm too weak to do it myself, why is it a fuss, just help me" which is something I find impossible to accept or understand.

Everything I said is obviously excluded in the case a regular diver is in an unexpected emergency and requires assistance, my problem is with the people willingly and knowingly putting themselves in a situation that might lead to an emergency given their "issue". (More specifically, putting the people who will have to save them in danger.)
 
someone with a condition known to them who doesn't do anything
If this includes the "condition" called overconfidence I know legions of those divers. Someone told to stay about 60ft by their instructor who turns around and does deeper dives exemplifies this kind of knows better perspective - which also extends to health issues and medical waivers for sure
 
When my friend was 78 he was still diving and it was my pleasure to help him on land when ever I got a chance. It was an even greater pleasure to see him in the water, he was like a fish and every move was effortless.
 
Inspected vessels in the USA, like in the UK, may not have lifts, as it is considered an elevator which has a ton of inspection requirements. I know of a couple uninspected boats in both the US and Canada with lifts, and think they are brilliant.
If that is true then there are no ‘inspected’ dive boats in the U.K.

At the big end of things we have 25ish metre liveaboards that have open sea tickets so can nip to Norway and back, or visit the Artic Circle. Surely such a boat is ‘inspected’ in some way? For sure they have to have stability reports and a proper chat with a naval architect.

The big ones all have lifts.

There is the odd RIB or small hardboat (actually I can only think of one of them) without a lift. The bloke without a lift is very helpful and makes sure you can get your bailout back onboard, but still I wouldn’t do a big dive and then climb a difficult ladder.

There is a difference in culture. On the one hand there is a place that values the freedom to control your own diving and not be dictated to in a nannying style by people who have no clue, and on the other one which is very commercially driven. Here skippers have to accommodate the requirements of the customer as they will not book on boats that are poor, for whatever value of poor the customer has. It is all repeat custom, piss me off and me and my 11 mates will not be back. In Marie’s case that boat would have lost a club and probably £2k to £3k of bookings the following year. If she was not up to the diving it would have been handled by the club. The DO would have done what it took to get her the training or support required to reach the necessary level. Since the DO is responsible to future buddies that can’t include being excessively positive. A result of this is that boats expect divers to be half way competent, they don’t need to check plastic cards.

The diving is not the business of the boats. In extreme cases they might have a gentle word, but they are definitely not taking responsibility. Mostly the skippers are accomplished divers. They could be handing out advice all day long, but that is not what they are paid to do.

The highest service boats are the Scapa liveaboards, one of which actually has shore based accommodation but the boat side is similar. These cater for people who might fly. They can rent you twinsets, singles, deco cylinders and bailout. They provide nitrox and trimix. People go there to do long, moderately serious dives (the deepest German battleship is 44m) but the diving is accessible enough that a club of mixed ability divers can have a fine time. Pertinent to this thread it means that the people running the boats have to use good judgement. They are very good at that, not many people die and not many people are asked not to do a thing, the default is that they keep their opinions to themselves or use soft means to try stop the wrong thing happening. In the end the divers are responsible for themselves.

Help wise, the crew is there to get people in and out of the water. If they are over a 80m site then they will be helping people into the water with quite a lot of kit. They know that. They know that having a flustered diver walk across the deck with three stages and a rebreather is more hassle on average than with one or two and clipping a stage on at the gate. If they took a “your on your own” attitude then the divers would have a poor time and be less likely to do it again next year. Everyone knows that part between kitting up and hitting the water is the worst bit. Decent boats try to mitigate that.

The downside of the way it works here is that it is quite hard to dive in a completely casual way. You need to either be experienced and self sufficient or part of a club. You can’t be a once a year diver with no kit and turn up somewhere on the coast and be taken care of. Nobody is pretending to take care of anybody.
 
What kind of operation has a policy of no assistance? I've never heard of such a thing and suspect that's probably a gross exaggeration. If they are taking your bottles after you hand them up, so you don't have to climb the ladder with them, that's called assistance! You should be able to at least hand them up to someone. That's not asking for much...

If you expect them to hoist you and all your gear on the boat, because you can't even climb any of the ladder, that's just a plainly unreasonable request.
 
There is a line to be drawn.

For us normally, gear like camera's Scooters, Slung tanks and because of our ladder types, fin) are handed up and accepted. Since we don't have a crew other than the driver, once the first diver is aboard they help.

We've all had to climb aboard Ribs meaning a de kit in the water, and hand it up to the crew while providing assistance. If it were doubles/twins, no problem they can be taken off in the water and pulled aboard - again with help from the diver in question.

In some circumstances here, you hand up the minimum because you need to get out of the water fast.

The hard line to be drawn, is where the diver has to have assistance to get out of their gear (or even into it), or to unclip items. In this case they'd be a liability by not being self sufficient. They need to adapt their kit that allows them to do so.

I would certainly not be taking such a diver, sure I'd offer assistance, but its a 2 way street where the diver has to adapt and find a solution that requires minimum of intervention, rather than being bloody minded and entitled
 
If that is true then there are no ‘inspected’ dive boats in the U.K.
As I understand it, in the UK a vessel is allowed to carry up to 12 passengers without complying with far more burdensome inspection requirements of a larger passenger vessel.

In the USA the threshold is 6 passengers. You will find a few “ uninspected” 6 pax vessels with lifts here, but no “ inspected” vessels.
 
Hi Wookie,

How difficult is the process to get a boat davit/cargo crane approved for an inspected vessel? I am sure the stability letter would have to be reissued and the new metacenter calculated. Structural issues would have to be addressed.

Other than that, is the process as onerous as getting a human lift engineered and approved?

Using a "boat davit" to retrieve gear from an injured or DCS stressed diver would certainly help the boarding process. The use of the "boat davit" could become a source of injury in rough seas. A twinset, stages, scooter, and a camera attached to the cargo falls and swinging wildly about in broadside seas could cause some real damage.

As I have written before, I am a 60 y.o. fit person. I am not fat. I cannot board a vessel with a twinset in low seas because my knees, left hip, and back are showing signs of wear and tear. The mileage is high.

Thoughts?

I agree with @Diving Dubai that a diver must be able to don and doff gear by themselves in the water, and I would like to add even in rough seas.

cheers,
m²V2
 
Hi Wookie,

How difficult is the process to get a boat davit/cargo crane approved for an inspected vessel? I am sure the stability letter would have to be reissued and the new metacenter calculated. Structural issues would have to be addressed.

Other than that, is the process as onerous as getting a human lift engineered and approved?

Using a "boat davit" to retrieve gear from an injured or DCS stressed diver would certainly help the boarding process. The use of the "boat davit" could become a source of injury in rough seas. A twinset, stages, scooter, and a camera attached to the cargo falls and swinging wildly about in broadside seas could cause some real damage.

As I have written before, I am a 60 y.o. fit person. I am not fat. I cannot board a vessel with a twinset in low seas because my knees, left hip, and back are showing signs of wear and tear. The mileage is high.

Thoughts?

I agree with @Diving Dubai that a diver must be able to don and doff gear by themselves in the water, and I would like to add even in rough seas.

cheers,
m²V2
Davit’s are easy. My knuckleboom Crane was not permanently mounted and therefore needed no paperwork. It’s not the weight, it’s getting it through all of the pain of lifting people. Manlifts are a red flag, whether a crane basket or a forklift basket or an elevator.
 
that a diver must be able to don and doff gear by themselves in the water, and I would like to add even in rough seas.

Gear remove replace is an OW skill. If you're in a new config, then it should be practiced. Also gear should be rigged and configured to suit your environment and personal circumstances. If you have mobility issues then alter your gear to suit etc

In the Summer here, you'll still need a 3mm wetsuit down below, but on deck the temp can easily be 110F and above - hence you want your rig sorted in a way that allows you to gear up quickly and efficiently to get in the water with the minimum of delay. The boats are small, kit on, sit down, fins on and roll off. If you're faffing others are waiting and getting very hot.

Similarly we all have times when we're carrying injuries so kit off in the water - sometimes kit on in the water too becomes a need. If you can't do it easily and without fuss, then you need to consider your configuration

Everyone is entitled to need assistance on one trip where a different situation crops up and things don't work as expected. However to continually require assistance rather than getting your kit and basic skills sorted will get you some choice words (at least).

While diving is inclusive, and adaptive, there is a point where if you can't manage the gear or you are the cause of delays and inconvenience to others from your choices then you shouldn't be diving that rig
 
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