Boyscout smarter than us?

[fisherdvm]

I am sorry but does anyone else think that this is just stupid??? What, you are safe to swim in 12 feet of water, but if the bottom is 13 feet deep suddenly you are going to drown? If you can safely swim in water too deep to stand in, or not, honestly it doesn't matter where the bottom is...

I don't think the issue is whether one can swim in 12 ft or 100 ft of water. It is the safety aspect of rescue ability.

Many water dyes used as herbicides in lakes are banned, because it limits visibility, making water rescue impossible.

The 12 ft rule has more to do with visibility, the ability to locate a sunken victim, and also the skill of the rescuer in diving, searching, and retrieving a victim from depth.

 

[Aquatic Eagle]

Let me spell it out for you.

Someone posted that he couldn't float. You felt the need to tell him, essentially, that he was mistaken or deluded. But you were polite, so no real problem, but when he insisted, and then someone else cited the physics of why he could be right, then I seconded that and cited ample evidence, you persisted in preaching like you were lecturing a bunch of 12 year old tenderfoots who insisted there ARE such things as snipes.

Maybe you've spent too much time with kids and now treat everyone like kids. That's one reason I generally don't like the company of K-4 teachers.

To put it as bluntly as I can, you're not talking to a bunch of wide eyed 12 year olds learning to swim in between summer camp troop initiation haizing. Your audience here are adult divers, who are at least literate enough to use a computer. They had to understand the principles of buoyancy and displacement to complete the first module of the easiest path to becoming divers. Many of them had to swim the length of the pool underwater, so they can hold their breath a decent length of time. They're probably pretty comfortable and relaxed in the water. So, even though I know everything you're saying about floating, before you say it, when an ADULT CERTIFIED DIVER, a member of a sub-population where the most common buoyancy complaint is that they can't sink without enough lead to build three car batteries, tells me they can't float, I don't feel any impulse to condescend to them about mindset and really, really trying. I grant them the dignity of not treating them as either a liar or a fool. Furthermore, when multiple certified divers are saying yes, there are people who can't float, I don't persist in insulting ALL their intelligence by repeating the same mantra over and over again, in the face of overwhelming evidence that yes, they DO get it, and they DO know what they're talking about.

Yes, I freely admit, condescending is one of my hot buttons, but even now, you persist in taking a stance and tone of "Yeah, some people can't float, but the ones I'm talking to now couldn't possibly be among them, they just need to be told ONE MORE TIME about the mindset thing and they'll come around. Poor dears."

I never said that they were wrong or deluded. I asked if they had ever actually learned how to float because that may be the problem. I never learned how to properly float until a few years ago and what a difference it made.

I know that I may not be talking to a bunch of 12 year olds but the topic is about Boy Scouts so maybe what I am saying is relevant. Also, just because an adult is certified as a diver and can swim "x" number of lengths in the pool doesn't mean that they can float. It's a completely different skill.

Also, if you would read my posts and stop looking for negativity, I wouldn't have to repeat what I've been saying. Apparently everyone else who was posting understands what I've been saying and that's why I haven't needed to repeat it to them. You are the only one that is taking the things I'm saying as negative and attacking me repeatedly. You're right, there are multiple divers on this thread that have said that some people can't float. I say again, READ MY POSTS. If you would read my posts you would see that I have repeatedly admitted the same thing. I'll say it again though. SOME PEOPLE CAN'T FLOAT. How else can I make it clear that I agree with that statement?

The only reason I repeated the part about mindset is because you attacked the point I was trying to make with a stupid, immature reference to the force. Then somebody else on the thread agreed with me about mindset having an effect on floating for most people so I responded.

Please, if anyone else agrees with everything bfw has said and is offended by my comments, let me know. I never meant to offend anyone and if I have, I apologize. I also thank you for not attacking my posts with the rude comments that bfw has been posting.

 

[Darnold9999]

NatureDiver - since you ask - and remember you asked - I agree with bfw, but it's the internet and I assume you were not really trying to be condescending, just overeager to get your point across and used to dealing with children. Would not put it as strongly as bfw but I had pretty much exactly the same reaction - but didn't want to start a flame war so let it go.

I gave you enough information to figure out that I really did know what I was talking about, "full lungs" "sitting on the bottom". You came back with something like full lungs has nothing to do with it, training is the important thing.

At 15 this is perhaps appropriate as at 15 I might not know what I am talking about and might not have gotten your point, but at 50 something with a couple of hundred dives it is probably appropriate to assume that I do and that I understand what you are trying to say as well.

I can remember someone like you trying to "train" me to float using the "jellyfish" float. Head in the water, lift up to breathe - except I had drifted to the bottom of the pool, feet touching the bottom with the surface several feet away. I knew I couldn't float and found it amusing. Lifeguards found it less amusing. The sight of a child lying not moving on the bottom of a pool is not a sight many wish to view. Got more than a few stern "talking to's" at the side of the pool.

At the end of the day I do get that you understand that there are some people that can't float - at 5' 10" and 135# I was one of them. I trust that you get that I understand that many children don't believe they can float and with some guidance you can help them to learn how. I would caution you that there really are lots of people who can't float and mostly they are children and you do need to listen to them. Something that sometimes adults forget.

 

[Aquatic Eagle]

NatureDiver - since you ask - and remember you asked - I agree with bfw, but it's the internet and I assume you were not really trying to be condescending, just overeager to get your point across and used to dealing with children. Would not put it as strongly as bfw but I had pretty much exactly the same reaction - but didn't want to start a flame war so let it go.

I gave you enough information to figure out that I really did know what I was talking about, "full lungs" "sitting on the bottom". You came back with something like full lungs has nothing to do with it, training is the important thing.

At 15 this is perhaps appropriate as at 15 I might not know what I am talking about and might not have gotten your point, but at 50 something with a couple of hundred dives it is probably appropriate to assume that I do and that I understand what you are trying to say as well.

I can remember someone like you trying to "train" me to float using the "jellyfish" float. Head in the water, lift up to breathe - except I had drifted to the bottom of the pool, feet touching the bottom with the surface several feet away. I knew I couldn't float and found it amusing. Lifeguards found it less amusing. The sight of a child lying not moving on the bottom of a pool is not a sight many wish to view. Got more than a few stern "talking to's" at the side of the pool.

At the end of the day I do get that you understand that there are some people that can't float - at 5' 10" and 135# I was one of them. I trust that you get that I understand that many children don't believe they can float and with some guidance you can help them to learn how. I would caution you that there really are lots of people who can't float and mostly they are children and you do need to listen to them. Something that sometimes adults forget.

Thank you for not assuming the worst. I appreciate what you are saying and I apologize for the way I might have looked. I certainly would never mean to treat adults as children. I look back at the posts and I still don't see how my replies could be taken as anything more than offering a point and trying to support it but if it seemed condescending to anyone, I apologize. The internet is a tough place because you can never hear a person's tone of voice.

It's not just children or even mostly children that think they can't float. Not at the camp I worked at at least. I've had a fair amount of adults that were taking the swim test and at the end, could not seem to make themselves float to pass the test until they had a few pointers. There are many adults that are embarrassed and afraid to admit that they never learned how to float or how to swim properly. I am not saying that is the case on this board or insinuating that at all. I am just saying that I don't think that it's mostly children that fall in this category. Adults are not represented properly because many are too embarrassed to admit to it, especially in front of a group of teenagers.

Anyway, my point has been made clear many times and I won't repeat myself anymore. I appreciate you writing in a civilized and decent manner. That is how things are discussed. If anyone else was offended then I apologize to you.

Thanks to everyone who refrained from being unnecessarily rude and insulting.

 

[fisheater]

As with all BSA requirements, if the Scout is physically unable to do it, then an alternate or waiver of that requirement is appropriate.

If a Scout is so lean and small lunged that he simply cannot float, even when demonstrating the proper technique, he should be excused from that requirement, assuming that he can show mastery of techniques to keep himself afloat if exhausted, such as inflating pants or a shirt (another technique taught in Scouts).

Also, to make it clear for non-Scout types, the swimming requirement under discussion here is simply the annual test to determine which Scouts (and adults, too) can be considered "swimmers" and allowed to swim in the open water area and participate in aquatics, such a boating, canoeing, etc.