Buddy breathing

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

I don't reply to many posts as my thoughts an feelings are expressed by many others that post before I read the thread. However, I do have a couple of things to say.

The concept of training is to teach someone how to do something without killing themselves or those around them. The question is, how do we do this and how far do we take it?

When I was first certified by NAUI in the late 80's, buddy breathing was taught and we practiced it every closed water session once we reached that point when the skill was introduced (about midway through the course). In the mid-90's when I was working to become an instructor (NAUI and YMCA) the same was taught. My wife and daughter are a week away from their OW and I helped with that class. It is still taught and is still practiced.

Will buddy breathing ever be needed? Probably not. Is an emergency skill not needed then? This skill IS NEEDED! The premise of teaching an emergency skill is for use in times of emergency. Not every rental reg has an octo. Not everyone uses an Octo. You can't tell how well maintained that octo is (or the hose its attached to). I've seen many who are too cheap to get their octo serviced but will get their primary serviced. Double-failures are rare, but do happen, therefore the skill needs to be taught and taught properly until the student is comfortable with the skill. Failure to do so simply does not prepare that individual for the emergency.

To use an over-exagerated example...our main roads are full of stop lights, not stop signs. So should we stop teaching what stop signs are all about since stop lights are so reliable? No, again the example is extreme, but it shows what I'm talking about. If you take the same premise of an emergency (two people relying on each other's backup equipment in an emergency) but change the situation, say shear face rock climbing, would the skill be less important?

Stuff does happen. Not that often, but it does. The safety concerns I have are that so many agencies are working on cranking out numbers and not skillful divers these days in order to increase profits. The concept of teaching "just what you'll use most of the time" and only spending a few minutes glancing over the details of everything else (like the gas laws and buddy breathing as well as other emergency skills) do nothing for the student. Teaching emergency skills to a student until they are relatively comfortable does more then teach them the skill, it improves their confidence underwater and that does more to keep them from panicing in an emergency than alot else. Experiencing something for the first time (or when the first time lasted five minutes) would lead many to panic and injur themselves or their buddies.

Understanding WHY they do something is just important as teaching them HOW to do something. If agencies STILL taught the basic emergency skills as they used to, then if you ended up paired with a buddy that did have a problem, there wouldn't be a problem. However, now that this emergency skill is no longer being taught by all (and by many just barely) if and when those emergencies do occur (and they do) both buddies have a greater chance of injury or death.

You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't change the facts of the matter. Yes, it is extremely rare. But you can never say never and my life and that of my buddy is worth more than a "why worry about it".
 
GDI:
What makes you assume that a diver will even have a Octo? I am sorry to say but there are those old timers out there who have not purchased any new equipment in the last century and have no desire to do so.

I found this to be true wih my parents. When they found out I was going to take up SCUBA they sent me a Sherwood reg in the mail. The first thing I noticed, no octo. I asked my folks about this and they responded with "Why do you need a 2nd regulator?" then they went on to remind me to always have a dive buddy that breathes less and swims slower than I.
 
tbuckalew:
The safety concerns I have are that so many agencies are working on cranking out numbers and not skillful divers these days in order to increase profits. The concept of teaching "just what you'll use most of the time" and only spending a few minutes glancing over the details of everything else (like the gas laws and buddy breathing as well as other emergency skills) do nothing for the student. Teaching emergency skills to a student until they are relatively comfortable does more then teach them the skill, it improves their confidence underwater and that does more to keep them from panicing in an emergency than alot else. Experiencing something for the first time (or when the first time lasted five minutes) would lead many to panic and injur themselves or their buddies.

I have to agree with you on that it seems like some instructors don't take it upon themselves to set up their students for success.

While I felt my instructor kinda "shotgunned" me through to certification, he did focus on safety skills such as buddy breathing. In addition, every dive with him was a review session.

A couple of my dive buddies have identified a definite lack of some basic skills beyond classroom. I had a buddy who never learned buddy breathing and another that had never done a safety stop in his life.
 
Apparently, the main argument for tossing the Buddy breathing skill is that it is very difficult to do for many people, making it useless.

Someone mentioned here that it is a DM skill - and for those who're DM's, it is difficult. Which means that it would be even more difficult for a novice or "rusty" diver - the largest group of divers in out of air situations according to DAN. If it causes stress (the objective in the DM course) imagine really being in an emergency, in a current, 60+ feet, etc, etc and sharing a single air source. Too much task-loading for most.

So, probably a great skill to learn, but I guess the research indicates that it just dosen't work as effectively as an octo. Plus, everyone needs a little neon....har har
 
Skills are skills and the more you acquire the better, for a regular diver, basic buddy breathing skills shouldn't be a problem to acquire and maintain. Buddy breathing isn't my first choice S.O.P. O.O.A. procedure.
I.M.O. emergency S.O.P's. are best based on self rescue. A single cylinder configuration should include a pony.
Factors I've considered:
Buddy's underwater rarely check each other enough, or dive close enough together, the lack of awareness, distances apart and speed of travel are all factors that can increase the likelyhood of a buddy being unable to respond or impossible to reach in sufficient time in an emergency.
We know a main cylinder octo is often neglected, dragged through the sand and mud and fastened or clipped onto a diver without any uniform standard.
Divers who don't over ballast themselves are somewhere near neutral on the surface with 40 or 50 bar with their standard configuration, when their cylinder is totally empty in shallow water some will have insufficient ballast and lose buoyancy control.
A buddy for a number of reasons may be slow and difficult to reach, locating and detaching an octopus in O.O.A. situation is an additional time consuming factor.
Whilst an underwater O.O.A. incident could be caused by a number of things, there is a possibility that when a diver is O.O.A. the accompanying dive buddy is in a simular situation.
Thats why I don't regard the main cylinder octo as the ideal safe option, although obviously breathing from an octo is easier to perform than buddy breathing.
I reckon for a O.O.A. emergency S.O.P. there is no substitute for an independant alternative air reserve/supply and the best buddy donating option is the reg from the buddy's mouth, hopefully their configeration like yours includes a long hose.
 
opiniongirl:
Apparently, the main argument for tossing the Buddy breathing skill is that it is very difficult to do for many people, making it useless.

That must be why they don't teach trim. LOL
Someone mentioned here that it is a DM skill - and for those who're DM's, it is difficult. Which means that it would be even more difficult for a novice or "rusty" diver - the largest group of divers in out of air situations according to DAN. If it causes stress (the objective in the DM course) imagine really being in an emergency, in a current, 60+ feet, etc, etc and sharing a single air source. Too much task-loading for most.

It's required at the DM level because it's optional at the entry level (PADI) therefore a DM must be able to do it so that they are qualified to assist an instructor who chooses to teach it at the entry level
So, probably a great skill to learn, but I guess the research indicates that it just dosen't work as effectively as an octo. Plus, everyone needs a little neon....har har

Don't be silly. There aint no stinking research on this :wink:
 
Depends on hot she is...........
 
opiniongirl:
If it causes stress (the objective in the DM course) imagine really being in an emergency,
Unless they've changed it since I got my DM, you had to swap BC's, fins, and mask while buddy breathing...that's what created the stress, not the buddy breathing.
jason
 
Marek K:
My personal opinion? I don't think there's a real high probability of its being needed, and I understand why it's not taught any more in OWD. But it's still a good-to-know skill. However, it's obviously much more complex than using an octo, and requires a much higher level of trust and cooperation -- it risks a fight over a single air source with a panicked diver. It assumes, I think, that the alternate air source has failed for some reason.

Given the way most divers (don't) take care of their octo, that's a good assumption to make. Let's put it another way - if you are out of air, you can either be absolutely dependent on finding a diver with TWO working second stages, or be prepared to deal with only finding a diver with one working second stage, your buddy or otherwise. Now, add to that the following - if a diver is at depth using SCUBA, what do we know for certain about the number of working second stages he has? That this number is absolutely at least one, and may be greater than one.
You're betting your life - would you rather bet it on a known fact, or a maybe?

Now, as to your statements about the complexity and additional risks of the skill in the face of potential panic. I could teach a chimpanzee to buddy breathe, and I've seen people 12 to 80, rocket scientists to janitors, master the skill. Thus, your conclusion assumes that divers will be morons. Granted, this is not an outlandish assumption, but it definitely says something troubling about the state of diving today.
 
Scuba_freak:
As we know, PADI have buddy breathing as an optional skill, why- i aint so sure,

Your sig states you are a PADI Instructor. All the reasons, good, bad, and ugly, why it is optional have been explained more than once in the quarterly training bulletins, which you are contractually required to read. I'm not faulting you for not reading them - we all know they're not real page turners, but perhaps you may want to stop and consider a little before you publish a tacit admission of that on the internet for all the world to see.
 

Back
Top Bottom