Buddy Diving Question
- Thread starter T-bolt Diver
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
(sorry for that)
The vast majority of Lawsuits by divers against "buddies" is when that buddy is a dive professional.
I would have to agree that I can't recall, in my circles, a case where buddy (or buddy's family) sued their buddy. But no doubt in this suit happy society it has happened.
I would have to agree that I can't recall, in my circles, a case where buddy (or buddy's family) sued their buddy. But no doubt in this suit happy society it has happened.
I'm not a Lawyer, but I was able to find the included links below from Rodale's that discuss Solo Diving and Buddy Diving Liabilities and Responsibilities. Enjoy.
http://www.scubadiving.com/training/instruction/liability.shtml
http://www.scubadiving.com/training/lessons/sept00.shtml
http://www.scubadiving.com/training/instruction/strangebuddy/goodbuddy.shtml
http://scubadiving.com/training/instruction/solocert/
I do find it interesting that even PADI who is deathly against Solo Diving freely admits in it's own Rescue Diver Course that the best buddy is a self-reliant one that is totally capable and prepared to self rescue.:huh:
http://www.scubadiving.com/training/instruction/liability.shtml
http://www.scubadiving.com/training/lessons/sept00.shtml
http://www.scubadiving.com/training/instruction/strangebuddy/goodbuddy.shtml
http://scubadiving.com/training/instruction/solocert/
I do find it interesting that even PADI who is deathly against Solo Diving freely admits in it's own Rescue Diver Course that the best buddy is a self-reliant one that is totally capable and prepared to self rescue.:huh:
WJL
Contributor
The information that I've seen suggests that most claims have been made when there is some sort of professional relationship between the people involved, like an instructor and a student, or a boat captain and a passenger. However, there's no reason that you can't be sued if you are a negligent buddy and your negligence harms your dive partner. You already are liable to your buddy to a certain extent. Exactly what the limits are is a matter of debate, but the fact is that this is not some future menace, it's present reality.
This shouldn't freak people out. This is no different than the standard of conduct people are required to conform to in everyday life. If you negligently drive your car through a red light and crash into somebody, you should bear the responsibility for the damage you caused. If you agree to be a scuba buddy for somebody, then negligently screw up, you should be responsible for your actions there too.
This shouldn't freak people out. This is no different than the standard of conduct people are required to conform to in everyday life. If you negligently drive your car through a red light and crash into somebody, you should bear the responsibility for the damage you caused. If you agree to be a scuba buddy for somebody, then negligently screw up, you should be responsible for your actions there too.
I just canvassed the ALLSTATES database on Westlaw using "scuba diving" /p "buddy" and found a few cases. Of particular note was the following:
Rasmussen v. Bendotti, 29 P.3d 56 (Wash.App. 2001). Diver breached duty of care owed to buddy when he failed to perform a buddy check at the surface, but the breach was not the proximate cause of the buddy's injuries. There was no professional relationship in this case.
I should probably research and write a brief on all these issues at some point so I can be an effective debunker. But WJL is right, the courts aren't expanding the rules of negligence. They're simply clarifying what the duty of care is and how a person can breach that duty. The worst case is that you'll need a waiver from your buddy before you dive with him. Wouldn't that be a great way to build confidence in the dive team?
Rasmussen v. Bendotti, 29 P.3d 56 (Wash.App. 2001). Diver breached duty of care owed to buddy when he failed to perform a buddy check at the surface, but the breach was not the proximate cause of the buddy's injuries. There was no professional relationship in this case.
I should probably research and write a brief on all these issues at some point so I can be an effective debunker. But WJL is right, the courts aren't expanding the rules of negligence. They're simply clarifying what the duty of care is and how a person can breach that duty. The worst case is that you'll need a waiver from your buddy before you dive with him. Wouldn't that be a great way to build confidence in the dive team?
Why do you find this interesting? This is not a new concept nor is it specific to PADI.
We don't teach the buddy system as an excuse to be incapable of self help. A buddy is a backup not a crutch. The most important backup privided by a buddy is an extra brain. Obviously if you are diving with a stupid person your team is in sad shape. Is the answer to dive alone or to get a better budy? The frieghtening thing is it's often the BAD buddy who chooses to dive alone rather than the good buddy trying to avoid the bad buddy.
BTW, I think it's an incorrect statement to say PADI is deathly against solo diving (see th PADI web site for their official stance on solo diving).
scubaredneck
Guest
I have had inattentive buddies who left me hanging but I don't think I'd ever want to sue them or make it easier for them to be sued. It seems to me that we should be able to take being a dive buddy serious while, at the same time, making our own safety a priority. Most of the time, it seems, it is over-relience on your buddy that gets you into trouble.
:saver:
:saver:
WJL
Contributor
Thanks for the case cite, AzAtty. I was thinking about your idea of having your buddy sign a waiver, and what it would be like to actually walk up to somebody and hand them the paper to sign. There might be a sudden change in atmosphere from the usual pre-dive chit-chat. In a sense, when you ask somebody to sign a waiver, you're telling them that they have no right to count on you for anything.
I don't think that's a good way to approach a dive. I expect a certain standard of behavior from a dive buddy, and I would not be willing to dive with that person if they weren't willing or able to perform up to that standard. I expect to have to perform up to that standard myself.
I'm fortunate to be able to dive with a group of people who are much more experienced than I am, but we all ascribe to the same standards and protocols. So we have some implicit expectations of each other, based on our training and experience. I wouldn't ask them to sign a waiver, because I accept that they have a right to rely on me to act a certain way under water. I also have confidence in their skills and training that make it easy for me to rely on them. Our goal is to practice and improve our skills so that nothing ever happens that would make somebody think about filing a lawsuit.
I have never had the experience of going diving by myself and getting teamed up with some randomly assigned person on the boat. Just sitting here right now, I'm thinking I would never do that. But that would be the environment where I would start to think seriously about waivers. I'm not skilled enough that I could deal with any sort of disaster that a nutball could get him or herself into, and I wouldn't want to have to rely on some unknown person's skills to help me out.
This all boils down to Rule Number 1.
I don't think that's a good way to approach a dive. I expect a certain standard of behavior from a dive buddy, and I would not be willing to dive with that person if they weren't willing or able to perform up to that standard. I expect to have to perform up to that standard myself.
I'm fortunate to be able to dive with a group of people who are much more experienced than I am, but we all ascribe to the same standards and protocols. So we have some implicit expectations of each other, based on our training and experience. I wouldn't ask them to sign a waiver, because I accept that they have a right to rely on me to act a certain way under water. I also have confidence in their skills and training that make it easy for me to rely on them. Our goal is to practice and improve our skills so that nothing ever happens that would make somebody think about filing a lawsuit.
I have never had the experience of going diving by myself and getting teamed up with some randomly assigned person on the boat. Just sitting here right now, I'm thinking I would never do that. But that would be the environment where I would start to think seriously about waivers. I'm not skilled enough that I could deal with any sort of disaster that a nutball could get him or herself into, and I wouldn't want to have to rely on some unknown person's skills to help me out.
This all boils down to Rule Number 1.
How was the course enlightening?
What kind of additional equipment did you use?
Mike, I'll try to take on your comments in order...
Can't agree with you more Mike. As I travel a lot and my wife doesn't dive, I find myself in the situation of trying to pick out the good divers from the bad without ever seeing them in the water. Way too often I never knew what I was in for until it was too late. It is hard to remember during those times that I dive for fun.
Oops
, I guess I shouldn't have quoted Rodales in my previous post. :hiding:
The comment was my attempt to point out an implicit hypocracy in the concept. They and (as you rightly point out) other agencies preach self-reliance but condem sole-relience.
This next section is rather long to respond to using all this bubbling and quoting so I'll just coment in italics...
We don't teach the buddy system as an excuse to be incapable of self help. Glad to hear that. I've actually never met anyone who did. A buddy is a backup not a crutch. Too many of us have found out the hard way that this is a goal and not always the truth The most important backup privided by a buddy is an extra brain. Is it engaged, capable and paying attention? Obviously if you are diving with a stupid person your team is in sad shape. If I'm diving alone and something stupid happens, guess I'll know who to blame. Is the answer to dive alone or to get a better buddy? Maybe both? either? The frieghtening thing is it's often the BAD buddy who chooses to dive alone rather than the good buddy trying to avoid the bad buddy. Rather broad brush there Mike. All I can say is that I'm not trying to avoid anybody. I like diving with people for the most part.
Before you go saying "oh sure", understand that in the last 32 years of diving, I had never considered going without a buddy. That is how well the rule had been engrained into me by my YMCA Instructor back in 1970. The only reason I considered it this year was I am getting more involved in technical wreck diving and I found that most serious deep wreck divers here in the northeast all go solo as a matter of course. This forced me to examine what I had believed as gospel most of my life.
I just was not ready to go Solo without actually taking a class to learn from others who had done it before and had developed a methodology of safely engaging in the sport. That happens to be the way I also approached motorcycles, hang gliders, ultralights, skydiving, skiing, snowmobiles and speedboats, all of which are solo sports and also, very dangerous for idiots. You'll note that none of them require a buddy, and somehow I survived them all.
On your recommendation I just checked the Padi website and I even used their search engine. I just couldn't find any mention of the word "solo" anywhere on it. I also checked their magazine website "Scuba Diver" and had the same luck. So I guess I really don't know what the official Padi opinion is on Solo diving. I only know what I been taught by Padi instructors. They told me not too. In fact, I was told that I was no longer welcome in the DM class that is starting up next month at my LDS, when he found out that I was taking classes from a TDI Instructor. I now am out looking for a new DM class. I was hoping to do both TDI and Padi but I'm finding that there is a lot of "attitude" from certain Padi instructors when they find out about my long term goals. But that's another thread.
If you are still reading at this point I do commend you on your perseverance and I appoligise for my long winded answer.
Can't agree with you more Mike. As I travel a lot and my wife doesn't dive, I find myself in the situation of trying to pick out the good divers from the bad without ever seeing them in the water. Way too often I never knew what I was in for until it was too late. It is hard to remember during those times that I dive for fun.
Oops
, I guess I shouldn't have quoted Rodales in my previous post. :hiding: The comment was my attempt to point out an implicit hypocracy in the concept. They and (as you rightly point out) other agencies preach self-reliance but condem sole-relience.
This next section is rather long to respond to using all this bubbling and quoting so I'll just coment in italics...
We don't teach the buddy system as an excuse to be incapable of self help. Glad to hear that. I've actually never met anyone who did. A buddy is a backup not a crutch. Too many of us have found out the hard way that this is a goal and not always the truth The most important backup privided by a buddy is an extra brain. Is it engaged, capable and paying attention? Obviously if you are diving with a stupid person your team is in sad shape. If I'm diving alone and something stupid happens, guess I'll know who to blame.
Is the answer to dive alone or to get a better buddy? Maybe both? either? The frieghtening thing is it's often the BAD buddy who chooses to dive alone rather than the good buddy trying to avoid the bad buddy. Rather broad brush there Mike. All I can say is that I'm not trying to avoid anybody. I like diving with people for the most part.Before you go saying "oh sure", understand that in the last 32 years of diving, I had never considered going without a buddy. That is how well the rule had been engrained into me by my YMCA Instructor back in 1970. The only reason I considered it this year was I am getting more involved in technical wreck diving and I found that most serious deep wreck divers here in the northeast all go solo as a matter of course. This forced me to examine what I had believed as gospel most of my life.
I just was not ready to go Solo without actually taking a class to learn from others who had done it before and had developed a methodology of safely engaging in the sport. That happens to be the way I also approached motorcycles, hang gliders, ultralights, skydiving, skiing, snowmobiles and speedboats, all of which are solo sports and also, very dangerous for idiots. You'll note that none of them require a buddy, and somehow I survived them all.
On your recommendation I just checked the Padi website and I even used their search engine. I just couldn't find any mention of the word "solo" anywhere on it. I also checked their magazine website "Scuba Diver" and had the same luck. So I guess I really don't know what the official Padi opinion is on Solo diving. I only know what I been taught by Padi instructors. They told me not too. In fact, I was told that I was no longer welcome in the DM class that is starting up next month at my LDS, when he found out that I was taking classes from a TDI Instructor. I now am out looking for a new DM class. I was hoping to do both TDI and Padi but I'm finding that there is a lot of "attitude" from certain Padi instructors when they find out about my long term goals. But that's another thread.
If you are still reading at this point I do commend you on your perseverance and I appoligise for my long winded answer.
Similar threads
