Buying full setup / Thoughts?

[lowwall]

Not to pile on more options, but the Apeks DST is another great sealed diaphragm first stage that has generally good service availability in Canada. If you're thinking about tech options in the future, I think a DST 1st/XTX50 seconds make for a great setup that's easy to reconfigure into doubles or stage regs in the future.

Unfortunately Apeks is part of Aqualung so there's the same uncertainty about their future.

 

[stuartv]

Under 500 when ordering from a European shop.

I quoted all US prices. What is your point if you're not going to quote all European prices?

Hadn't really considered the reg serviceability while diving internationally, will need to give that some more thought. I don't intend to do a ton of diving internationally, 1-2 short dive trips a year. Will think about it, but I think I'd be best suited to make my regulator choice based on the majority of the diving I will be doing, and risk having to switch to a rental reg while travelling if it cant be serviced.

I don't factor international serviceability into my reg purchases. I think that is a red herring.

My regs are serviced and good to go before I leave home. They are good quality and rarely need to be serviced at all.

I take a spare 1st and 2nd stage on big trips, so if I do have one get broken or otherwise have a problem while traveling, I would just swap out the particular 1st or 2nd stage. Then get the broken one fixed when I get home. The chances of having 2 first or 2 second stages crap out in one trip is pretty remote. If that were to happen, I would rent regs or quit diving for the rest of the trip.

I think most all modern regulators are up to the task. Tech diving communities seem to have and advocate certain preferences, but the reality is that you will most likely not find much of a performance difference across the spectrum of available products currently being offered by any brand.

Apeks seems to be the common "go to" brand for tech divers, but they are currently owned by Aqualung who seem to have some financial issues going on.

As I mentioned in my post above, think about where you will/might need to have your reg set serviced. While some will advocate that any competent shop should be able to service any regset, my experience living and traveling around the world is that shops tend to be partial to servicing gear from the companies whose product lines they sell....Globally, in my experience, it is easier to find shops that service Aqualung, Scubapro, and Mares....in that order. If you plan to just dive your reg set locally and/or self-service then that opens up recommendations for others, and among what you are considering, Deep6 would be the easiest to get service kits for self-service.

-Z

I'm not sure where you found data to conclude that Apeks is "the common go to brand for tech divers."

That may be true is some locales. Where I am, almost no tech divers that I know use Apeks.

As for servicing regs oneself, I will just say that I have been to ScubaPro reg tech school, levels 1 and 2. And I quickly concluded that my regs only need to be serviced every 3 (or more) years and I don't want them serviced by somebody who only works on regs every 3 years. I.e. I'm not servicing my own. I want my regs serviced by someone competent, who is experienced and does it all the time.

To further reinforce my own decision, I had a friend a few months ago who has Deep6 regs and has been to the service class so he can service his own. His regs needed to be serviced. Did he do it himself? No. He decided that it had been a couple of years since his class and he'd rather have them serviced by someone that does it all the time, rather than depending on his own knowledge from the 1 day class he took 2 (or more?) years ago.

Be realistic and honest with yourself before you commit to buying regs based on a plan to service them yourself.

Not true at all. There is not more flexibility. It's one of these things people repeat but doesn't make any sense.

Speaking of people making no sense...

I have trilam and compressed neoprene drysuits. I like all my drysuits. My neo suit is absolutely perfect - for some specific things. It is perfect for FL cave diving, where the water is always around 72-ish degrees. It is perfect for water from around 55 to 70 degrees. I love my neopene suit - in the situations where it is the best choice.

But, compressed neoprene is NOT the most flexible suit. Literally or figuratively.

For example, if I am diving in a warm or hot climate and the water is also warm, then I would not want to be wearing my compressed neoprene drysuit, at all. But, if I'm doing a deep or long technical dive, I would want the redundant buoyancy of a drysuit. For that situation, one of my trilam suits is a much more pleasant choice. Not excessively warm. Minimal additional bulk, compared to any kind of neoprene suit (wet or dry). Completely (physically) flexible. Travels much easier when you don't need warm undies, compared to a neo suit.

Also, if the water is really cold (e.g. below around 45 degrees), I also prefer the trilam. It is cut with enough room to fit thick undies and an electric layer underneath it and still be comfortable.

My neoprene suit is not cut loose enough to fit all that under it. If it was cut that loose, then the excessive bagginess of material as thick as the compressed neopene would make it somewhat unpleasant for the diving where I needed no undergarments (beyond a thin base layer, of course).

Thus, a trilam is more flexible or versatile. It is better for both extremes of temperature (hot and cold) and still totally fine for the temperatures in the middle.


Lastly, I think several people already mentioned Seaskin drysuits. I have both Seaskin trilam and compressed neoprene suits. The trilam are very afforable and still top quality. Tne compressed neoprene suits are even more affordable and equally high quality. They are both made to measure and generally fit their owners very well. ANY brand can make to measure and screw up the fit - even Santi (and I've personally seen Santi have to make a whole new suit because of how badly they screwed up).

You asked specifically about DUI. My shop sells DUI. I would take a Seaskin over a DUI all day - even at the same price.

I own and have owned other brands of suits besides Seaskin. I have owned or closely examined many other brands, including Santi, Waterproof, Hollis, Fourth Element, Dive Rite, Otter, O'Three, SF Tech, Ursuit, and others. I don't think any of them are significantly better than Seaskin. Some have materials that are a little nicer - either because they are a little stretchy, or a bit lighter, or because they are more "slippery" on the inside, making them easier to slide on over undergarments. NONE of them are as customizable as Seaskin suits. When I ordered my first Seaskin, I wanted very specific options for just about every part of the suit. At that time, Seaskin was the ONLY vendor I could order from (that I was able to find) and get everything exactly as I wanted. They still are, as far as I know. Getting exactly what I wanted AND being less expensive than ANY other option made it a no-brainer, to me.

Several of those other brands are enough nicer that I would buy them, if they were no more than $500 to MAYBE $1000 more than a Seaskin. And, I should note that in some cases, the "nicer" material in a different suit is probably not going to be a durable as the Seaskin material. There ARE tradeoffs to feeling lighter or stretchy. So of the other suits - e.g. SF Tech kevlar - are probably even more durable than the Seaskin. All the SF Tech owners I know absolutely LOVE their suits - including some EXTREMELY experienced cave/CCR divers and cave/CCR instructors. I would love to have one myself. I have little doubt that an SF Tech is a better suit than a Seaskin. But, it is absolutely NOT worth as much more (to ME) as what the actual price difference is. As long as Seaskin exists, still makes their same quality, and maintains roughly their same prices, there is NO way I'll ever pay $4,000 for a drysuit. I'll take 2 Seaskins and a couple of reg sets for that much money, thank you.

I have trilams and a compressed neoprene suit. If I were only going to have one drysuit, it would be a trilam. Just my $0.02.

 

[ChrisMBC]

Unfortunately Apeks is part of Aqualung so there's the same uncertainty about their future.

You’re not wrong - but on the balance of probabilities, I’d say that there’s more chance of Apeks (with a popular brand name, fairly streamlined reg lineup, widespread dealer lineup, long-ish history) being around in 20 years, than there is Deep 6 or other smaller DTC brands.

To be clear, I think there’a a good chance both brands are still around. But yes, if you want to maximize for the probability of long-term servicing availability, I would probably buy whatever’s the most popular reg sold by a large (but non-private-equity-owned) brand.

 

[stuartv]

You’re not wrong - but on the balance of probabilities, I’d say that there’s more chance of Apeks (with a popular brand name, fairly streamlined reg lineup, widespread dealer lineup, long-ish history) being around in 20 years, than there is Deep 6 or other smaller DTC brands.

To be clear, I think there’a a good chance both brands are still around. But yes, if you want to maximize for the probability of long-term servicing availability, I would probably buy whatever’s the most popular reg sold by a large (but non-private-equity-owned) brand.

I agree. Nevertheless, TODAY's forecast (from me lol) would put an even higher chance on other big name brands being around versus the chance of AL/Apeks.

Meaning, IF I decided to go with a big name brand, I would still choose one other than AL/Apeks. AL/Apeks is good, but they are not better, in any way, than numerous other options.



Oh, and @Luke99, one last thought on regs:

I personally would not buy any 1st stage that doesn't have a bottom LP port and a swivel turret. That type of 1st stage - whether it is piston or diaphragm - gives the most versatility for possible future uses. There are plenty of 1st stage regs that don't have one or both of those features. But, NONE of them are any BETTER than other options that DO have those features.

Having a bottom port gives (to ME) the best hose routing for single tank use. I run my "octo" out the bottom port, so the hose can run under my right arm without first going out to the right side and then bending down. It goes straight down from the 1st stage and loops under my arm. More streamlined. A minor detail. Certainly not required. But, why NOT?

Having a bottom port is also nicer for hose routing when you are using your regs on back mount doubles. They result in your LP inflator hose and your alternate 2nd stage regulator hose running straight from the 1st stage to their destination, with no sharp (or sharp-ish) bend near the 1st stage.

Having a bottom port is also nicer for hose routing in sidemount. You can have your wing inflator hose coming straight out and across to your wing power inflator and you can have your drysuit inflator hose coming short and straight directly to your drysuit inflator. Neither is a requirement. Depending on you, your setup, your instructor, etc., you might not even do either one of those things that way. But, without a bottom port, you don't even have the option. So, again, why NOT have it?

The swivel turret makes no difference (to ME) in single tank usage.

The swivel turret is nice for the long (7') hose in back mount doubles. If you have to deploy that long hose to an out of air buddy, the swivel turret can rotate so the hose is pointing directly over your right shoulder and towards your buddy. The alternative is that the hose is pointing down from the 1st stage and has to make a sharp 90 degree turn to go over your shoulder to your out-of-air buddy.

The swivel turret is also nice for hose routing on sidemount and deco cylinders. The hose can be pointed down along the cylinder when you're not using it. When you pull out the reg from a deco cylinder, the turret swivels, so the hose is not making a sharp 90 degree turn to get around your neck or directly to your mouth. Alternatively, you can setup a fixed turret so the hose is pointing the right way for usage, but then it's making a sharp 90 degree turn to be stowed down the side of the deco cylinder when not in use. In other words, with a fixed turret, the hose is going to make a sharp bend one way or another.

In sidemount, again, the swivel turret on the right side cylinder (presuming that's where your long hose is) allows the hose to point in the best direction when you're breathing off of it versus the best direction when an out-of-air buddy is breathing off of it.

A 1st stage with a swivel turret and bottom LP port has no inherent downside, compared to a 1st stage with no swivel and no bottom port. On the other hand, a 1st stage that has neither of those features DOES give "less nice" hose routing in almost every configuration that one might dive.

The only reg that I ever recommend to people that does not have both a swivel turret and a bottom port is the Atomic Z2. It DOES have a bottom LP port, but not a swivel turret. And I only recommend it for people who KNOW that they are only going to ever use it for single tank diving. They know they are never going to want to press that Z2 first stage into duty for some other setup, like back mount doubles or side mount or on a deco cylinder or pony bottle. In that case, the Z2 has the bottom port necessary for what *I* think is the best hose routing for single tank, and the lack of a swivel turret is irrelevant. And also, you CAN have an Atomic tech upgrade the Z2 to have a swivel turret, if you ever really wanted to.

 

[Luke99]

I agree. Nevertheless, TODAY's forecast (from me lol) would put an even higher chance on other big name brands being around versus the chance of AL/Apeks.

Meaning, IF I decided to go with a big name brand, I would still choose one other than AL/Apeks. AL/Apeks is good, but they are not better, in any way, than numerous other options.



Oh, and @Luke99, one last thought on regs:

I personally would not buy any 1st stage that doesn't have a bottom LP port and a swivel turret. That type of 1st stage - whether it is piston or diaphragm - gives the most versatility for possible future uses. There are plenty of 1st stage regs that don't have one or both of those features. But, NONE of them are any BETTER than other options that DO have those features.

Having a bottom port gives (to ME) the best hose routing for single tank use. I run my "octo" out the bottom port, so the hose can run under my right arm without first going out to the right side and then bending down. It goes straight down from the 1st stage and loops under my arm. More streamlined. A minor detail. Certainly not required. But, why NOT?

Having a bottom port is also nicer for hose routing when you are using your regs on back mount doubles. They result in your LP inflator hose and your alternate 2nd stage regulator hose running straight from the 1st stage to their destination, with no sharp (or sharp-ish) bend near the 1st stage.

Having a bottom port is also nicer for hose routing in sidemount. You can have your wing inflator hose coming straight out and across to your wing power inflator and you can have your drysuit inflator hose coming short and straight directly to your drysuit inflator. Neither is a requirement. Depending on you, your setup, your instructor, etc., you might not even do either one of those things that way. But, without a bottom port, you don't even have the option. So, again, why NOT have it?

The swivel turret makes no difference (to ME) in single tank usage.

The swivel turret is nice for the long (7') hose in back mount doubles. If you have to deploy that long hose to an out of air buddy, the swivel turret can rotate so the hose is pointing directly over your right shoulder and towards your buddy. The alternative is that the hose is pointing down from the 1st stage and has to make a sharp 90 degree turn to go over your shoulder to your out-of-air buddy.

The swivel turret is also nice for hose routing on sidemount and deco cylinders. The hose can be pointed down along the cylinder when you're not using it. When you pull out the reg from a deco cylinder, the turret swivels, so the hose is not making a sharp 90 degree turn to get around your neck or directly to your mouth. Alternatively, you can setup a fixed turret so the hose is pointing the right way for usage, but then it's making a sharp 90 degree turn to be stowed down the side of the deco cylinder when not in use. In other words, with a fixed turret, the hose is going to make a sharp bend one way or another.

In sidemount, again, the swivel turret on the right side cylinder (presuming that's where your long hose is) allows the hose to point in the best direction when you're breathing off of it versus the best direction when an out-of-air buddy is breathing off of it.

A 1st stage with a swivel turret and bottom LP port has no inherent downside, compared to a 1st stage with no swivel and no bottom port. On the other hand, a 1st stage that has neither of those features DOES give "less nice" hose routing in almost every configuration that one might dive.

The only reg that I ever recommend to people that does not have both a swivel turret and a bottom port is the Atomic Z2. It DOES have a bottom LP port, but not a swivel turret. And I only recommend it for people who KNOW that they are only going to ever use it for single tank diving. They know they are never going to want to press that Z2 first stage into duty for some other setup, like back mount doubles or side mount or on a deco cylinder or pony bottle. In that case, the Z2 has the bottom port necessary for what *I* think is the best hose routing for single tank, and the lack of a swivel turret is irrelevant. And also, you CAN have an Atomic tech upgrade the Z2 to have a swivel turret, if you ever really wanted to.

Thanks for all the thoughts, lots to think about.

One thing that has me a bit off the Deep6 is I cant find really any claims about water temperature. It has the bottom port and swivel like you are suggesting.

Many have already said that it is similar to the others we're discussing, but is the deep6 signature capable of mid 30s?

Also can't see any manufacturer claims about nitrox % supported out of the box

 

[Luke99]

Edit: not sure why this double posted

 

[L13]

I'm not sure where you found data to conclude that Apeks is "the common go to brand for tech divers."

That may be true is some locales. Where I am, almost no tech divers that I know use Apeks.

I think it is true in at least parts of Europe.

As for servicing regs oneself, I will just say that I have been to ScubaPro reg tech school, levels 1 and 2. And I quickly concluded that my regs only need to be serviced every 3 (or more) years and I don't want them serviced by somebody who only works on regs every 3 years. I.e. I'm not servicing my own. I want my regs serviced by someone competent, who is experienced and does it all the time.

To further reinforce my own decision, I had a friend a few months ago who has Deep6 regs and has been to the service class so he can service his own. His regs needed to be serviced. Did he do it himself? No. He decided that it had been a couple of years since his class and he'd rather have them serviced by someone that does it all the time, rather than depending on his own knowledge from the 1 day class he took 2 (or more?) years ago.

This is why I bought a bunch of used regs. They are fun to practice on between servicing my shiny new ones. I rebuild the practice ones often and test them out at the local quarry afterwards to be sure I did them right. So far I have rebuilt at least one reg a week since taking my reg maintenance class.

 

[lowwall]

Thanks for all the thoughts, lots to think about.

One thing that has me a bit off the Deep6 is I cant find really any claims about water temperature. It has the bottom port and swivel like you are suggesting.

Many have already said that it is similar to the others we're discussing, but is the deep6 signature capable of mid 30s?

Also can't see any manufacturer claims about nitrox % supported out of the box

Deep6 is EN250 certified just like most of their competitors. That means it's tested down to 50m and 4⁰C.

The only more rigorous certification I am aware of is NORSOK U-101. This requires testing to 200m but at a slightly higher temperature of 5⁰C. The only regs I am aware of that meet this standard are the Poseidon Xstream, Apeks XTX series, and Mares 62X, 72X, 82X and XR first stages when fitted with their TBP Coldwater kit.

As to Nitrox capability, there is this statement in the Deep 6 Signature manual, "The Deep6 Signature regulator set is delivered oxygen clean and ready for pure oxygen use up to 2400 psi." Obviously if it can handle 100% O2 from the factory, it will be fine with recreational Nitrox which tops out at 40%.

 

[Twiny]

Hi, if you really plan to go Tec as you said, better you wait and buy your gear once Tec certified.
For your no-deco single cylinder dives of the moment, a rental gear will be good enough to practice.
Who knows if you won't be a sidemount diver in a while
If you buy equipment right now, for reg I would choose the (DIN) Calypso of Aqualung, coz cheap (one of the cheapest), easy maintenance, enough for recreational diving and later it will be a perfect deco reg if needed. As stated before, later on, you might really need primary regs with a rotative turret.
Happy bubbles

 

[stuartv]

Thanks for all the thoughts, lots to think about.

One thing that has me a bit off the Deep6 is I cant find really any claims about water temperature. It has the bottom port and swivel like you are suggesting.

Many have already said that it is similar to the others we're discussing, but is the deep6 signature capable of mid 30s?

Also can't see any manufacturer claims about nitrox % supported out of the box

I have never used a Deep6 reg myself.

But, I think the main thing that generally rules out a sealed diaphragm reg set from really cold water use is when the 2nd stage has a plastic air barrel.

i believe the Deep6 Signature 2nd stage has a Teflon coated metal air barrel. Given that and the sealed diaphragm 1st stage, I would expect it to be as good in cold water as pretty much any of the other regs that have been discussed here. Probably only regs that are specifically made for cold water or ice diving (e.g. some Poseidons, the Apeks MTX, etc) are going to be really any better.

But, maybe @cerich or @LandonL can throw in 2 cents worth on this question.