Can We Equate Sharks with Land-based Predators?

[Splitlip]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QTBWYBLb2xg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=QTBWYBLb2xg

 

[DaleC]

Interesting video. Kill fish you don't intend to eat. Acclimate predators to hand feeding. Interject oneself into a setting and change the behavioral dynamic. Zero concern for nature. 100% entertainment for humans.

It's not surprising considering the consumer driven society we live in. Those fish, those sharks: only products to be manipulated to create a purchasable experience.

 

[danvolker]

For those that have not seen the SHARK WHISPERER piece yet from ABC Nightline, please see Swimming With the Shark Whisperer | Video - ABC News
It is certainly on point for this discussion....particularly about the way the interactions CAN be taking place...without any feeding...

 

[drrich2]

SplitLip:

I enjoyed the video and imagine I'd have enjoyed the dive(s), though seeing the tiger sharks would've been spooky for me. For those of you who don't watch it, we see bull, lemon and tiger sharks and a goliath grouper, and there's considerable hand feeding of lemon sharks, particularly pulling the fish through the water while the shark follows, then letting go and pulling the hand away while the shark moves in and grabs the food. But at times the shark gets pretty close to the hand.

I wonder at the odds we'll eventually see an accident with this. Granted, there are driving accidents and most of us still drive, so a single accident wouldn't 'prove' much of anything, but consider:

1.) On a video shot overseas linked on the forum in the past, a guy has a plastic water bottle between his hands, rubbing back & forth to lure sharks. One maybe 4 or 5 feet long comes in quickly behind him and on his left, and reaches around him in very close quarters, trying to snatch the prey item. Could've easily grabbed a hand.

2.) Scuba masks plus the zoom effect of being underwater cut down our peripheral vision, and we are in a 3D world (we can be approached from above & below, not just the side, unlike most land situations).

1 + 2 = a second shark dashes in from your blind spot(s) and you don't see it coming.

3.) There's always the chance a shark will abruptly pour on the speed and dash in.

4.) I see divers wearing gloves, so their hands are black and contrast with the fish. Someone imitating this activity might not normally wear gloves, or think it might be important. But 'white' Caucasian hands look a lot like small fish. Is not wearing gloves an added risk issue?

5.) Does no one worry about a nearby barracuda making a dash in and grabbing at the food? I've seen a guy hand-feed barracuda on t.v.; they're so fast you could lose a hand before you see the fish. Even if you're good with 'reading' sharks, is that going to save you from a surprise barracuda?

Richard.

 

[Splitlip]

Interesting video. Kill fish you don't intend to eat. Acclimate predators to hand feeding. Interject oneself into a setting and change the behavioral dynamic. Zero concern for nature. 100% entertainment for humans.

It's not surprising considering the consumer driven society we live in. Those fish, those sharks: only products to be manipulated to create a purchasable experience.

You got from it what I intended. I am in the no feed court. Although at least one of the people in the vid is a friend. Maybe two..

---------- Post added February 6th, 2014 at 05:21 PM ----------

SplitLip:

I enjoyed the video and imagine I'd have enjoyed the dive(s), though seeing the tiger sharks would've been spooky for me. For those of you who don't watch it, we see bull, lemon and tiger sharks and a goliath grouper, and there's considerable hand feeding of lemon sharks, particularly pulling the fish through the water while the shark follows, then letting go and pulling the hand away while the shark moves in and grabs the food. But at times the shark gets pretty close to the hand.

I wonder at the odds we'll eventually see an accident with this. Granted, there are driving accidents and most of us still drive, so a single accident wouldn't 'prove' much of anything, but consider:

1.) On a video shot overseas linked on the forum in the past, a guy has a plastic water bottle between his hands, rubbing back & forth to lure sharks. One maybe 4 or 5 feet long comes in quickly behind him and on his left, and reaches around him in very close quarters, trying to snatch the prey item. Could've easily grabbed a hand.

2.) Scuba masks plus the zoom effect of being underwater cut down our peripheral vision, and we are in a 3D world (we can be approached from above & below, not just the side, unlike most land situations).

1 + 2 = a second shark dashes in from your blind spot(s) and you don't see it coming.

3.) There's always the chance a shark will abruptly pour on the speed and dash in.

4.) I see divers wearing gloves, so their hands are black and contrast with the fish. Someone imitating this activity might not normally wear gloves, or think it might be important. But 'white' Caucasian hands look a lot like small fish. Is not wearing gloves an added risk issue?

5.) Does no one worry about a nearby barracuda making a dash in and grabbing at the food? I've seen a guy hand-feed barracuda on t.v.; they're so fast you could lose a hand before you see the fish. Even if you're good with 'reading' sharks, is that going to save you from a surprise barracuda?

Richard.

I'm not there Rich. I don't agree with it. I intentionally posted without commenting. I vehemently oppose the practice. I didn't even like the petting of the grouper. Remove their protective slime, they can stress and die.

 

[DaleC]

Like you I have my views but also have a good friend who loves shark dives.

We have a similar phenomenon up here with feeding Wolf eels urchins. A lot of people do it so they can lure the eel out and want it feed and some eels become habituated to humans as a result. In this case a little different because they are not far ranging predators or dangerous due to habituation and a lot of people see no problem with doing this but I personally choose not to cause the death of an animal (the urchin) for my entertainment. Some argue that the eel will eat the urchin regardless but this does not relate to the human intention of reducing life down to objects to be manipulated and destroyed for entertainment.

I never win those debates on the dive boats either

 

[DanMont]

Personally I would much rather see people not engaged in hand feeding sharks, using chum I am more comfortable with. Personally I think the video demonstrates a very bad situation involving hand feeding. Murky water, multiple sharks, other predators (the grouper), fish tied to a spear gun. You can see in the video a moment at 3:30 where the diver is watching one shark move away and doesn't notice a second coming from a different direction until the last moment, in the end the shark just misses his hand (which incidentally he is using to hold the spear gun very close to the tied on fish) but it would be easy for the scenario to play out differently.

The footage from mid water with the bulls and lemon sharks I don't really have a problem with (it would be better if there was no hand feeding of the lemons, but at least this time he is actually letting the fish go as the shark approaches!), nor the footage of the tiger. If you want to jump in the water with large predatory sharks you have to take the (minimal usually) risk of a bite or attack occurring with the thrill of being close to the animal.

In my opinion if a large shark was serious about wanting to eat you there wouldn't be a whole lot you could to stop it. The sheer number of people diving with large sharks combined with the scarcity of major attacks on divers leads me to believe that the majority of the time sharks don't see us as a prey item.

 

[DaleC]

In my opinion if a large shark was serious about wanting to eat you there wouldn't be a whole lot you could to stop it. The sheer number of people diving with large sharks combined with the scarcity of major attacks on divers leads me to believe that the majority of the time sharks don't see us as a prey item.

I would agree with this if we add us "divers" as a prey item "most of the time".

Evolution takes some time and so far the shark has developed a pretty successful, predictable method of acquiring food. It chooses easy prey or situations to reduce risk of harm to itself or, even better, injured or dead prey. Non divers have more to fear because they produce some of the well known behaviors a shark depends on in this regard. Flailing about near the surface (injured prey) often in low vis (good for ambush predation).

Free Divers are a new mystery (only about 70 years since Cousteau's first dive) that the shark has not figured out yet. What are we? Swimming mid water, not bolting, facing the predator, bubbles, big camera arrays, offering food. To a shark this presents an unknown element which they would rather avoid attacking if they can find food using more traditional means.. Which is good for us and good for them.

Breaking down that barrier by closely relating divers to easy food isn't dong the shark any service. None of the sharks in that video looked like they were starving. You can be bet if they do begin attacking divers the sale of bang sticks will skyrocket and all those close encounters will seem threatening and provoke deadly retaliation.

Some may say the shark is merely demonstrating curiosity (which it is) but I am not sure that curiosity is entirely benign. I study freshwater Sculpins, a family of small benthic ambush predators. I have noted an interesting behavior in which this very small animal actually moves toward a diver when he/she is in the area. Why? Common sense would dictate that the small fish should move away to avoid predation but it actively moves forward. Anthropomorphically, I could say they are just being curious, that they do not see me as a threat. The (I think so far) more accurate reason is that divers often stir up the bottom and the sculpin is hoping this will dislodge prey that they themselves can eat. Their curiosity is related to seeing how they can acquire food.

Curiosity, yes. Benign, not so much. My concern is that the shark is learning something more about divers by being in close proximity than those who feed them realize. Can intelligent species make new decisions about acquiring food sources? I'll try to link a video that shows something interesting...

 

[KevWind]

Here is my take on it. I think the answer to the OP is actually both Yes and No.

Yes: in the sense that a fairly significant amount of predatory behavior is going to be universal. To pull an arbitrary number out of the air lets say 70 % to 90 %
In fact while there is certainly distinct differences, a fair amount of behaviors is similar also between predator and prey species


No: in sense that a certain amount will be species specific and may change drastically depending on situation and individual personality and particular mood. and this difference can be very important.

Contrary to long fostered arrogant and ignorant cultural myth, the truth is the complex nature of the (human animal) behaviors and emotions is in objective reality, not that dissimilar from many other animal species.

While I tend to agree that humans injecting themselves in to contrived close contact if done at all, should be with done with reason and caution. And as more is learned and more data gathered we should constantly re evaluate the validity and nature of any types contact with wild predators Chumming, Hand Feeding ect. etc.

On the other hand arguably these types encounters do in fact help generate a huge amount of public awareness and emphasis towards conservation
So it is a bit of a two edged sword.

 

[DaleC]

On the other hand arguably these types encounters do in fact help generate a huge amount of public awareness and emphasis towards conservation
So it is a bit of a two edged sword.

That has always been my argument for the benefit of keeping whales in captivity. Those contrived encounters by masses of non ocean going people helped to popularize and personalize the whale - which led to increased interest in its conservation. The best example would be "Free Willy" which ironically, couldn't have been made without the use of a captive whale.

But times change, and as awareness grows we sometimes need to alter our outlook. The time of needing captive whales has passed and there are better techniques of revealing shark behavior than hand feeding.

Here's that video which, I apologize, is poor quality and probably only of interest to fish geeks like me:http://s35.photobucket.com/user/fish...ort=3&o=14

This is a sea star Pycnopodia helianthoides in a closed containment system. Historically, this animal derives its food from the sea bottom but here it developed a new strategy to skim the surface of the water for a food source (nutrients added and intended for other inhabitants). The problem being, the sea star is a non discriminating predator that will eat almost anything it can acquire. In this system that now included any surface dwelling organism which had no natural defense against this new form of predation.