Catalina Island death info?

[MXGratefulDiver]

BMI charts are not a good indicator of fitness, since they are only based on height v weight. They do not account for muscle mass, cardio fitness, core strength or overall build. By the BMI charts, the majority of NFL football players are obese.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Brendon]

intellectually able to deal with concepts of physics when they haven't even had algebra yet.- Ken

Ken,

I appreciate your response to this topic in regards to "gossiping". People shouldn't comment on such things without the facts...

I understand what what you mean in the previous statement, atleast in its context.
However what I quoted above is not true...

Most of the students I teach have long forgotten algebra... Some never had it. So to state that as if it is a requirement to understand physics as it pertains to diving couldn't be more incorrect. I don't teach algebra, yet I have no trouble showing someone how to get answers for all of the formulas we use in recreational diving.
Add, subtract, multiple, divide. I break everything down to 3rd grade math at best. Thats an 8yrs old, math class. 13yrs old would be 8th grade. To make my point, I know several 13yr olds that are better at understanding physics then most divers I run into or teach... They also tend to be better divers in general. Kids are alot smarter and tougher then alot people would give them credit for in this industry... I believe in those terms a 13yr old would be better prepared to take a scuba diving physics class then a 30yr old. They "might" not have the best decision making skills compared to a 30yr old due to lack of life experience. That would be the only argument you could make that I "might" agree with.

 

[Rick Murchison]

...Being overwieght is not a 'useless statistic.'..

Let's keep it simple. If about 75% of people who dive are overweight, then we can expect about 75% of people who die diving to be overweight. In a sample as small as scuba deaths, a 5% difference (that is, anywhere from 70-80%) is statistically insignificant. So in this case, the statistic of 76% being overweight is useless.
Rick

 

[Rick Murchison]

BMI charts are not a good indicator of fitness...

BMI charts aren't even a very good indicator of BMI! They're lazy. I know plenty of sinkers who're "overweight" according to the BMI charts. Ridiculous.
Rick

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The statement by the son is very troubling. I'm sure there will be some sort of counseling for him. But to address the issue of post accident stress, feelings of guils, second guessing, etc. I have stated previously here and in some of my essays that every rescue course and professional level course should have some type of post accident information for the rescuer. Having been involved in a few successful rescues where the vic came out ok with no damage other than to their ego or pride I can say that these are very real concerns. I am fortunate in that my GF is a psychotherapist with PTSD training. She has assisted me in one rescue class by talking about what to expect, what can result, and most importantly how and where to get help. I am incorporating this into all of my classes to some degree from OW on up. Since we teach rescue skills in OW and as I found out you never know when, even as an OW diver, you may have to assist someone and what the ramifications can be after the event it is valuable info. I'm outlining a paper now to submit to my agency on this and expect it will be published at some point in our quarterly journal. It will also be a part of my next book.

 

[fjpatrum]

BMI is a useless statistic that just doesn't provide any real meaning. According to BMI calculators I have a 22.5 BMI. Currently I have about 3-4% body fat. If I fall in the "normal" category with such a low body-fat percentage then the scale is obviously flawed. Furthermore I'm in the worst physical shape I've ever been in in my entire life, which is just another indication that the BMI chart doesn't really provide any meaningful detail. Yes, it's anecdotal evidence but the same situation is true for just about every athlete I've ever met, from highschool on up.

 

[freewillie]

BMI is a useless statistic that just doesn't provide any real meaning. According to BMI calculators I have a 22.5 BMI. Currently I have about 3-4% body fat. If I fall in the "normal" category with such a low body-fat percentage then the scale is obviously flawed. Furthermore I'm in the worst physical shape I've ever been in in my entire life, which is just another indication that the BMI chart doesn't really provide any meaningful detail. Yes, it's anecdotal evidence but the same situation is true for just about every athlete I've ever met, from highschool on up.

It is useful in determining whether or not your weight is in a certain range for your height. I never meant to imply that is was a indicator of general physical fitness.

And, to NWGratefulDiver's comment, yes, NFL lineman are obese by BMI charts. So are sumo wrestlers. Both have very high incidence of heart attacks and diabetes.

You can be thin and out of shape, but it's hard to argue that you can be overweight and healthy.

For unexplained accidents such as this, and the NC diver thread, seemingly 'healthy' divers suddenly lost consciousness and died. I'm saying that it is less of a mystery knowing that the diver's body habitus is either significantly overweight or obese. Make me more suspicious that the event wasn't necessarily scuba related except the physical stress of scuba diving itself precipited a sudden cardiac event. Can still happen if you're thin, not so much of a suprise if you are obese.

 

[bubba105]

What is the cause of the frothing during CPR? My thought is water in the lungs. I have been involved in CPR many hundreds of times throughout my career, never involving scuba, with the exception of once, recently, where the victim was frothing initially & during the first round of compressions. Once rescue breathing began, it stopped. Never seeing that before, I had a split second lapse of concentration before initiating CPR.

BTW, we were able to revive this victim. Before that I could count on maybe 2 hands my wins in 29 years as a fireman.

 

[browntrout]

It is useful in determining whether or not your weight is in a certain range for your height. I never meant to imply that is was a indicator of general physical fitness.

And, to NWGratefulDiver's comment, yes, NFL lineman are obese by BMI charts. So are sumo wrestlers. Both have very high incidence of heart attacks and diabetes.

You can be thin and out of shape, but it's hard to argue that you can be overweight and healthy.

For unexplained accidents such as this, and the NC diver thread, seemingly 'healthy' divers suddenly lost consciousness and died. I'm saying that it is less of a mystery knowing that the diver's body habitus is either significantly overweight or obese. Make me more suspicious that the event wasn't necessarily scuba related except the physical stress of scuba diving itself precipited a sudden cardiac event. Can still happen if you're thin, not so much of a suprise if you are obese.

Eventhough it has nothing to do with this thread, your not getting it with BMI. Not just the lineman are obese by the BMI standard, so are the linebackers, the running backs, the tight ends and probably about 75% of the other skill positions. Someone with an extremely low BMI could be in signitficantly worse shape and at a far higher risk of heart disease than someone obese on the BMI chart.

 

[freewillie]

Eventhough it has nothing to do with this thread, your not getting it with BMI.

Someone with an extremely low BMI could be in signitficantly worse shape and at a far higher risk of heart disease than someone obese on the BMI chart.

I'm sorry if this sounds high and mighty, I am generally a very low key easy going person. I apologize if these sounds condescending, it is certainly not my intention to sound as if I am talking down to someone. I listed my occupation in my profile as self employed because it make me uncomfortable to advertise that I am a physcician. I am an MD with over 12 years experience.

I never said BMI was an indicator of health. I said a BMI is measure of how much overweight a person is relative to their height. A BMI calculator takes into account wheter or not a person's weight is appropriate for their height. That's it. A whole host of experts who are far smarter than me have determined the BMI charts. The National Institute Health and World Health Organization have set up these criteria.

Now, the reason why they are used is because they are screening test for the average population. As a person's BMI increases there is a direct correlation between being overweight, being obese, and a linear increase in hypertension, heart disease, and diabetes. Also, there is a directe correlation to obstructive sleep apnea which has its own risk for sudden death. These risks are also directly correlated to waist size which is a marker for central obesity.. There is a significant correlation to a person's waist and the above health problems.

Let's be clear, I am not saying it is a marker of general fitness and heatlh. There are multiple factors in health. One that is not apparent to the naked eye is cholesterol levels. Remember the pitcher for the St. Lous Cardinals Darryl Kyle? He ahd a sudden death heart attack in his early 30's. Turns out he had a significant family history in which his dad and paternal uncle both died in their 40's of heart attacks. You can be thin and still have high cholesterol, heck you can have diabetes and hypertension for that matter as well. I see it every day. The BMI is simply one of a number of different factors that determine health and risk for heart disease.

Getting back to this thread, this particular diver was estimated by witnesses to be around 300 lbs. This puts him in the obese weight or above unless he is over 7 feet tall. And while we can speculate about if he had a scuba related accident like AGE, witnesses describe a sudden death event. See my previous post regarding possible causes. Statistically, he has at least a 2 fold increase over general population for undiagnosed coronary disease. I also looked at the DAN 2008 report on diver fatalities. Of the reported deaths, 76% (thanks Bob) were either significantly overweight or obese. In regards to NIH and WHO data with a direct linear correlation with incidence heart disease/heart attacks and either increasing BMI or increase waist circumference (which is just as significant a predictor) a sudden death event in this setting is not as big a mystery. Also, DAN data indicates that fatal heart attack account for 38% of diving fatalities, far more than AGE or DCS.

Those are the numbers. Please tell me that I'm not getting it in regards to BMI. And by the way, I would make you cite your references if you were a medical student.