Catalina Island death info?

[Rick Murchison]

...There is no right or wrong answer here...

Perhaps not.
However, if you want to dive with youngsters, there is a basic philosophy that should be followed when dealing with children that goes something like this:
You are the adult and the child is a child. A child is *not* a dive buddy, a child is a child.
Some children can learn to dive safely with proper supervision, but a child doesn't have the under-pressure decision-making capacity, to say nothing of physical strength (usually) to handle an adult with an emergency, especially if there's a modicum of "adult panic" thrown into the problem. (yes, there are many adults who're not competent buddies either, but that's another discussion entirely)
If you want a buddy, you must take someone with you to be that buddy in addition to the child.
If you take a child by yourself, you are not only diving solo with an extra burden of responsibility (the child), you are also, because the child cannot be a buddy, saddling that child with a burden he/she cannot bear. This is a bad idea. Don't do it.
If your child's other parent isn't a competent dive buddy and you don't have a trusted dive buddy willing and able to assume the extra responsibility of having your child along, hire a pro to go with you.
I don't say "don't let X yr old children dive," but I do say "don't take a child diving without a competent, enthusiastic buddy." And with very tight limits on depth, time, current, min vis, temp, etc., etc.
Rick

 

[Ken Kurtis]

You are right also in the concern that should be given to the boy as well . . . At the same time, he should be commended for his actions, ascending under these circumstances safely bringing his dad with him to bring him to aid.

The actions of the 13 year-old are even more remarkable/commendable once you realize that his father was a very large man, weighing well over 300 pounds.

- Ken

 

[Ken Kurtis]

As per forum rules, as listed in the . . . speculation should be labeled as such, and is not forbidden . . . It is guaranteed to provoke a few rants, however, mostly from people who know the forum rules but can't seem to accept them.

Not quite my position Vladimir. (And I do NOT intend to re-live my whole rant.) My only point is that there's a very fine line between clearly-labelled speculation and speculation (even labelled) that is written in such a way as to be miscontrued as fact. And this doesn't even address those who could start there posts with "I wasn't there, don't know the particulars, and didn't see anything but here's what I think happemned anyhow . . ."

Personally, if you're going to speculate, I like the format Bleeb posted which is to say it as "Is it possible this happened, and if so, would this have happened . . ."

I think that makes it harder for people to miscontrue what is being posited with what is known. (But that's specualtion too.)

- Ken

 

[Thiad]

I thought the same thing, Ken, without knowing the size of the father. It takes quick thinking and a rational head for anyone to react in an emergency. So many people just stand around and gawk.

Yet here is the unthinkable emergency - a dive accident - underwater, a teenager who is probably fairly new to diving, a parent in distress. While my heart obviously breaks for this child, there is also much praise and admiration for doing what he did. A lot of people would have panicked themselves possibly causing a second tragedy.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

The actions of the 13 year-old are even more remarkable/commendable once you realize that his father was a very large man, weighing well over 300 pounds.

- Ken

In order to keep the dataflow accurate...

Ken, please cite your source that the victim in question weighed "well over 300 pounds." Were you present at the incident, is this second-hand knowledge (related by someone involved in the rescue), is it info from the medical examiner, or is this just speculation?

 

[Ken Kurtis]

In order to keep the dataflow accurate...

Ken, please cite your source that the victim in question weighed "well over 300 pounds." Were you present at the incident, is this second-hand knowledge (related by someone involved in the rescue), is it info from the medical examiner, or is this just speculation?

Speculation. Cute. I guess you missed - or refused to infer anything from - the parenthetical above where I stated (for those who didn't know) that I'm the Forensic Consultant for scuba fatalities for the LA County Coroner.

But since you asked . . .

The information I shared was relayed to me by multiple "sources" directly involved with the rescue and the subsequent investigation. Although I am privy to the exact number, I simply passed the general number on to give a better sense of what could be termed heroic efforts by the 13 year-old to deal with the situation.

- Ken

 

[fjpatrum]

Not entirely off-topic but mostly off-topic. I'm curious if anyone knows how the son is doing. In my SAR team we always do what we call "incident stress debriefings" whenever a search subject is found deceased. The sooner the debrief occurs, the better. I'm sure the boy will receive some sort of counseling for a while about this but I'd be interested to see how things are done "typically" for dive accidents like this. I read these boards and see a lot of discussion about actions during the response but what happens afterward? Ken, since I see you as a professional at least in part responsible for information about dive deaths in your area, do you folks out there in CA do anything officially? Do you know if any of the shops do this with their employees who are involved in an incident?

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Ken, since I see you as a professional at least in part responsible for information about dive deaths in your area, do you folks out there in CA do anything officially? Do you know if any of the shops do this with their employees who are involved in an incident?

Yes and no.

We had a professional pyschologist, Mark Tulin, who was a volunteer supervisor at the Chamber. Mark was trained in Critical Incident Stress management and set up a program for the Chamber crew (not sure if Baywatch was included in that or not). But Mark wasn't confortable making that available to shops/boats/etc. (i.e. general public) who'd been through an incident. We were trying to figure out a way to make it available that would work. Unfortunately, Mark died suddenly (not dive-related) in February so we're really back to square one with this, at least locally.

I have had informal chats with both PADI and NAUI (and I think even DEMA) about setting up something like this on a national basis as a resource for diving professionals involved with a fatality. So far, nothing doing. But you never know. Sometimes an incident like this provides the "tipping point" and change happens.

I do have a local guy, Dr. Gary Brown, who is a licensed psychologoist, and who specializes in Critical Incident Stress management/response. He's available (for a fee) if needed and can go anywhere in the country. Gary's worked with first responders at the OK City bombing, the World Trade Center on 9/11, and I've used him twice for my staff for two fatalities we had about ten years ago. Really good guy. (And it turns out he lives just around the corner from me so I see him at the market every now and then.)

Gary's got a great website - Dr. Gary Brown - which is very informative about critical incident management in general, as well as provides specific info for him. I enocourage those interested (let alone in need) to visit the site.

- Ken

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Speculation. Cute. I guess you missed - or refused to infer anything from - the parenthetical above where I stated (for those who didn't know) that I'm the Forensic Consultant for scuba fatalities for the LA County Coroner.

But since you asked . . .

The information I shared was relayed to me by multiple "sources" directly involved with the rescue and the subsequent investigation. Although I am privy to the exact number, I simply passed the general number on to give a better sense of what could be termed heroic efforts by the 13 year-old to deal with the situation.

OK, thanks for clarifying that point. As you know, it can be difficult to determine what is fact and what is speculation on these threads sometimes, regardless of the poster. The victim's approximate weight had not been released to the public, as far as I know. With a person of larger size (perhaps placing him in a category of "obese"), the possibility of some cardiovascular or other medical issue playing a role in the incident increases.

 

[PonchoTA]

This is the first I've heard of this sad incident. I am rarely aware of any incidents that occur on dive boats coming from the mainland until well after they happen, and frequently not even those that occur in the dive park. Being a marine biologist Ph.D. rather than an M.D., I have to defer to anyone with first-hand medical knowledge anyway (like Ken).

I knew you weren't an M.D., but thought since you hail from the area where the accident occurred, maybe you might have heard more info, that's all.

I didn't think about the boat not even going TO Catalina, and not having dived there (yet!!), not awfully familiar with the rest of the operations there. My apologies.

Man, I sure am making a lot of unfounded assumptions. I apologize to everyone else too, I'm not thinking very clearly these days.

Paul