Cave 1 single tank restriction scares me...

[PfcAJ]

No dive police are going to stop you from diving doubles. NO ONE actually checks that. Parks check cards, but the cards get you in the door.

Diving doubles with an 'expired' card is better than diving a single on a 'current' card.

 

[kotik]

I have had enough run-ins with Instructors (some are SELF-PROCLAIMED EXPERTS) that I will listen to their opinion, but I make the final decision about my diving equipment, and my dive profile(s).

I guess what rankles me is: the OP posts a question "Can I do X". When OP gets a response that doing X may not be the most kosher thing, he brushes that aside. Seriously, why even ask the question then?

The OP doesn't have a lick of cave training yet. A cave instructor is definitely going to be more than just a self proclaimed expert by comparison, since the OP has no expertise to fall back on whatsoever. And it's not that the OP is listening to an instructor and then relying on his own counsel. It's been suggested a couple of times that questions like this might be better discussed with an instructor rather than doing the learning over the internet. That idea just prompted a smart-a$$ed comment about his mommy.

We have a person with no training, who apparently equates the concept of seeking advice about cave diving from a cave instructor instead of the internet, with running to mommy. I just don't believe that's a good perspective to start out with.

If there are agencies that don't have an expiration on their lower training levels, then maybe those are a good fit for the OP's goals. For my part I encourage respecting whatever limits are imposed by the level of your training. If you don't like the limits, then advance your training to match the level of diving you want to do. But above all, find a good instructor and learn stuff from them first in favor of whatever mixed bag you find on a forum somewhere.

 

[DevonDiver]

I can understand the concept of expiring cards if the diver hasn't maintained a currency at their existing level (not doing much diving at that level over a year etc). To expire a card based on a lack of progression seems truly absurd though - a policy like that just encourages people to push beyond the level they are comfortable at and/or still reinforcing their experience within. Assuming, of course, that we recognize that divers need experience time to ingrain the skills taught on courses... and will peak sometime long after the course, rather than directly on graduation.

I'll echo what others have asked... what agencies does this?!?

 

[ucfdiver]

Thank you. Exactly the information I was looking for. I checked both their websites and it looks like TDI will be ideal for me since it appears that NAUI doesn't do sidemount. Thanks for the direction!

I read a recent post which did state you can do NAUI C1/2 in Sidemount, unfortunately. I guess everyone caves to the dollar.

 

[kotik]

what agencies does this?!?

The NSS-CDS for one. Maybe the NACD as well, I'm not sure about that.

My recollection of the history of this is: originally, there was no training progression in cave training, it was all done in one big lump, from what's now known as cavern through full cave. It was later recognized that the training would work out better if it were possible to progress in manageable chunks. So along with the prospect of sending students with incomplete training out for a time without instructor supervision, came the question of how to establish limits on the divers to keep them within situations that meet the level of training they do have.

With cavern certification, they're confined to the part of the overhead where daylight is still visible. This is a permanent certification.

For the first level of actual "cave" certification, the student is allowed to go past the daylight zone, under very limited circumstances-- no navigation decisions, and limited penetration. To limit penetration distance, the student was restricted to a single tank with two first stages on a Y or H valve. And James' harangue on how stupid, useless, etc. notwithstanding-- Exley and the other guys that wrote the book did a lot of cave diving with a single tank, and I've never heard that the cause of any accident was "dove a single tank with an H-valve".

So that Intro certification was permanent too. But there were students who really didn't want to do training in a single tank, and it was later allowed to do Intro in doubles, but penetration was still limited to the amount of gas you'd be able to use in a single tank. However, it was not considered a good idea to make the doubles certification permanent, since that would increase the temptation to take a bare minimum of training and stop, and then go on to do more advanced diving without ever getting real training for it.

So then it must have seemed harsh to certify someone as a cave diver, but then strip the certification away entirely if they certified in doubles and let the cert expire, especially when the single tank certification is permanent. So, technically if the doubles cert expires, you are bumped back to the permanent singles certification.

I think all this should be considered in relation to the original premise that the intermediate levels of cave training weren't intended to be complete within themselves. They're intended as stopping places along the way to give the student a chance to absorb the new knowledge, practice what they learned, rest and heal muscles, go back to work for a while, etc. It's considered a risk for someone to get just a little training and then stop, but continue cave diving. There are numerous cases of people doing that that then go on to do dives way beyond their training that get themselves killed. Once someone starts the training, they are encouraged to finish.

 

[ScubaSteve]

But above all, find a good instructor and learn stuff from them first in favor of whatever mixed bag you find on a forum somewhere.

But on a forum, there is sure to be someone that will side with "your" outlook and path, even if it is just to say "You are a big boy, do whatever you want". A person may not be able to find that approval in a good instructor. I believe that is why most of these questions are asked online rather than posed to a person who is in a position to answer it in person (i.e. an instructor or mentor).

 

[PfcAJ]

"Sheck did it, so its ok"

Ugh.

 

[TSandM]

You know, I take a different view of things . . . I think there are a lot of people who don't get to do much cave diving, who honestly would never need more than the NAUI Cave 1 limits. If you do Peacock to Olsen once a year, do you need to take a class that teaches you how to set up circuits and traverses? If we had a reasonable class that gave people just a little more flexibility than mainline and 6ths, I think some folks would never go further, and there would be nothing wrong with that. If they got bored with those limits, they'd go on, as people now do.

I'd sure rather see people in overhead environments in doubles, no matter what their cert.

 

[RichmondKYdiver]

Like most every one has said, NSS CDS doubles expire in 18 months, NACD 12. If all you want is to dive doubles and stick to 1/6th on the gold line, no expiration for doubles with TDI.

 

[kotik]

"Sheck did it, so its ok"

Ugh.

So the alternative is "James or AJ say so, so Sheck was this unsafe guy who didn't know what he's talking about"?

I am certain you guys are skilled, safe divers. Beyond that though there's nothing I know about you to establish your credibility in a way that I would discount what Sheck or an agency you didn't train through says, however much derision you lay into your opinions on a subject.

If there's some compelling reasons that can be cited to support all of the fire and brimstone I've heard against the H-valve, I'd be willing to listen. I'm talking something real though, not just the party-line "You're gonna die" stuff. I've heard that before, and to me it just comes off as scare-tactics. I don't think an H-valve is ideal, but I also don't buy that it's this huge monster worth such ranting. Really, I believe there's an element of chest-thumping on this subject to promote how much "safer" one agency is than any who'd dare allow something that they don't.

---------- Post added September 11th, 2013 at 03:04 PM ----------

Like most every one has said, NSS CDS doubles expire in 18 months, NACD 12. If all you want is to dive doubles and stick to 1/6th on the gold line, no expiration for doubles with TDI.

NAUI as well it sounds like--