No one would like my answers to training because I never trained to the minimum standards. Needless to say there would be far fewer cave divers and far less damage to the systems. Oh well. We'll all pay for it one way or another in the end.
Cave Certs Expiration
- Thread starter MyronGanes
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has nothing to do with it being enough or not to learn. My point is you would get bored very quick if you had to stay at the intro level.
Example.
You have 2 options right now when cave training
Option 1: 4 days to take cavern/intro, limits you to sixths with no nav decisions, then go back and do 4 more days to get to full where you basically can do whatever you want, but you are almost guaranteed to have to go back for the second set
Option 2: 5 days, do the same as the cavern intro, but you learn how to make 2 navigational decisions and get to dive to thirds. IF you decide that you want to do the big boy dives, you go back for another 5 days and you learn how to do stage dives, plan cave decompression etc etc.
My point is that Option 1 forces you into 8 days of cave training at some point and trains you for dives that frankly most cave divers don't make. Option 2 trains you in 5 days to do dives that are really enough for most people to be completely content with and not have to go back for more training. It's the same as combining cavern/intro/apprentice into a non-expiring cert because full cave is more training than most people need for the diving they're doing. How many cave divers do you know that actually do stage dives with big decompression compared to those that are perfectly happy with thirds of backgas and depending on the cave system, maybe 5 minutes of decompression if you're on the second dive of the day or using really big tanks? I know a lot of the guys that do the first one, and hell, I am one, but we are easily outnumbered 10:1 by those that are perfectly content diving thirds with 2 nav decisions. Trust the divers to limit themselves, and if they won't, don't certify them, don't limit them by idiotic restrictions like sixths *designed to prevent penetration*, and navigational decisions *which makes some caves basically not worth diving because of how close the jumps can be.
Examples of why I think the intro to cave is dangerous this day in age because it doesn't teach navigational decisions. Due to the number of people that are currently diving in the popular caves, there is more traffic. If you are trying to learn and are at say JB, you have moderately sized tanks and a good SAC rate, but someone jumps into // lines. Your dive is now over because you can't go past that jump because it technically is a navigational decision. Alternatively you go into the cave and it's 0 viz for whatever reason and you are on your way out. You are following the line and all of a sudden you feel a line where someone has jumped somewhere but you don't have a clue what to do because you weren't trained on how to pass that nav decision. Obviously no one has eaten it because of this situation, but the fact that they don't train you on how to navigate a navigational decision means that it could happen, and that to me doesn't make sense and if I were training for an agency that had the archaic 4 step progression, I would make sure that my students knew how to make navigational decisions for those reasons, but realistically I wouldn't choose to teach for those agencies because I don't believe the training progression is as safe or reasonable as the GUE/NAUI progression which is much more in line with modern training. Unfortunately, the for-profit agencies are unlikely to change because it means less $$ for their instructors and the agency, and the NACD/CDS are unlikely to change for similar reasons on top of their both proving that they are stuck in 1985....
Example.
You have 2 options right now when cave training
Option 1: 4 days to take cavern/intro, limits you to sixths with no nav decisions, then go back and do 4 more days to get to full where you basically can do whatever you want, but you are almost guaranteed to have to go back for the second set
Option 2: 5 days, do the same as the cavern intro, but you learn how to make 2 navigational decisions and get to dive to thirds. IF you decide that you want to do the big boy dives, you go back for another 5 days and you learn how to do stage dives, plan cave decompression etc etc.
My point is that Option 1 forces you into 8 days of cave training at some point and trains you for dives that frankly most cave divers don't make. Option 2 trains you in 5 days to do dives that are really enough for most people to be completely content with and not have to go back for more training. It's the same as combining cavern/intro/apprentice into a non-expiring cert because full cave is more training than most people need for the diving they're doing. How many cave divers do you know that actually do stage dives with big decompression compared to those that are perfectly happy with thirds of backgas and depending on the cave system, maybe 5 minutes of decompression if you're on the second dive of the day or using really big tanks? I know a lot of the guys that do the first one, and hell, I am one, but we are easily outnumbered 10:1 by those that are perfectly content diving thirds with 2 nav decisions. Trust the divers to limit themselves, and if they won't, don't certify them, don't limit them by idiotic restrictions like sixths *designed to prevent penetration*, and navigational decisions *which makes some caves basically not worth diving because of how close the jumps can be.
Examples of why I think the intro to cave is dangerous this day in age because it doesn't teach navigational decisions. Due to the number of people that are currently diving in the popular caves, there is more traffic. If you are trying to learn and are at say JB, you have moderately sized tanks and a good SAC rate, but someone jumps into // lines. Your dive is now over because you can't go past that jump because it technically is a navigational decision. Alternatively you go into the cave and it's 0 viz for whatever reason and you are on your way out. You are following the line and all of a sudden you feel a line where someone has jumped somewhere but you don't have a clue what to do because you weren't trained on how to pass that nav decision. Obviously no one has eaten it because of this situation, but the fact that they don't train you on how to navigate a navigational decision means that it could happen, and that to me doesn't make sense and if I were training for an agency that had the archaic 4 step progression, I would make sure that my students knew how to make navigational decisions for those reasons, but realistically I wouldn't choose to teach for those agencies because I don't believe the training progression is as safe or reasonable as the GUE/NAUI progression which is much more in line with modern training. Unfortunately, the for-profit agencies are unlikely to change because it means less $$ for their instructors and the agency, and the NACD/CDS are unlikely to change for similar reasons on top of their both proving that they are stuck in 1985....
I keep seeing "For Profit Agencies" but I hear "I don't want to pay the course curriculum".
Boredom has nothing to with the equation.
Slow progressive training with gained experience between certification levels is the point. Not to jack you for your loot.
Boredom has nothing to with the equation.
Slow progressive training with gained experience between certification levels is the point. Not to jack you for your loot.
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why do you keep making the assumptions that we should reduce training standards, or that I'm saying that people are too cheap to take full cave? Care to actually read what we wrote? If GUE, arguably the most stringent agency in the world, quite possibly the most expensive, and certainly the most stringent cave training agency has chosen to go with their progression, you are basically telling them that their standards are lax and their students are cheap because they don't follow a training progression that hasn't been changed in 50 years? come on man, if you're going to make accusations like that you better back them up whether you think people aren't going to like it or not, quit being passive aggressive about it and have the balls to voice your opinion about it if you think we are all cheap, lazy, complacent, and wrong which is what you have just accused us of being
I did read the response that's why I posted the way I did.
He said people were breaking standards so we might as well change them to suit what's happening.
Did you take something different from his examples? To be fair I formed it as a question. I'll be glad to listen to his response.
He said people were breaking standards so we might as well change them to suit what's happening.
Did you take something different from his examples? To be fair I formed it as a question. I'll be glad to listen to his response.
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completely wrong, because IF that was the point, the agencies would have required dives between the courses and wouldn't allow them to be combined in either 2+2 or all in one go. GUE and NAUI both have required logged cave dives between cave 1 and cave 2. Neither TDI, PSAI, IANTD, CDS, or NACD have any required logged dives for experience, so try again
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no, but that has nothing to do with making them lax. It just means changing with the times. If people are violating the standards and diving to thirds and making a jump, why not change your training progression to match what people are clearly wanting to do. I.e. GUE/NAUI which says you get to dive to close to thirds for GUE or thirds for NAUI and make 1/2 navigational decisions. Both of their cave 1 courses are MORE stringent than Intro from any of the for-profit *TDI, IANTD, PSAI* or the historic agencies *CDS/NACD*, so why do you think we are advocating for less stringent standards?
Alternatively, they can make Apprentice a non-expiring cert, and allow cavern/intro/apprentice to be taught in 5 days, and I'd be OK with it. I still think intro is a stupid certification, but the fact that apprentice expires means you have a 2 step process of intro or full, and intro isn't enough for most, full is too much for most, and the GUE/NAUI approach splits that right up the middle for "just right".
Edit: apparently CDS has changed in the last year or two and apprentice no-longer expires, which is a good thing. TDI and IANTD apparently don't have apprentice, which is not as bad as having one that expires, but not as good as not having one at all
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You are correct, it's not required it's encouraged and that's the point. To take it slow and get experience on your own if desired.
It's even written on the CDS page.
Cave Diver Training
It's already been stated, most people want instant gratification and don't want to put in any more effort than the minimum. It shows.
Because what people want to do and what they can safety do with minimum training aren't the same things.
I'd also like to point out: "This certification, as with all NSS-CDS certifications does not ever expire. It used to expire after 18 months."
Cave Diver Training
Cave Diver Training
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