Cave Course Comparison

[DhugalMac]

First off I have read and agree with the 'Sticky' posting from Capt Jim Wyatt about picking a Cave Dive Instructor. However there are some other considerations that I want to take into consideration (rightly so or not).

Since most of my technical dive partners have been Cave trained in one organization they have been taught to dive with a certain level of skills. When I get Cave certified I too want to be able to work cohesively within the team with a comparable level of skills.

BUT I also want not to be pigeon-holed into HAVING to be certified by one and only one agency. And, agreeing with Capt Jim's point of view, as long as I get the right instructor - teaching the right course, I should be trained as good (or better?) as my partners.

Consequently, without getting into inter-agency politics, I want to compare, from solely a skill-level perspective, the cave certifications between GUE and NACD. Based on the web posting descriptions, I am having difficulty distinguishing between the 2 sets of classes.

In NACD there is:
* Intro to Cave Diving
* Apprentice Cave Diver
* Full Cave

In GUE there is:
* Cave Level 1
* Cave Level 2
* Cave Level 3

Again, without getting into inter-agency politics, what course in NACD is comparable with what course in GUE?

Thanks

 

[MikeFerrara]

Based on course limits, I would compare GUE cave 1 to NACD intro and GUE cave 2 to NACD "full" cave.

Except for JJ or David Rae, I don't think I've met anyone who was GUE cave 3.

 

[DhugalMac]

If
* GUE Cave 1 <=> NACD Intro to Cave Diving
And
* GUE Cave 2 <=> NACD Full Cave

Then were does NACD Apprentice fit in?
Obviously, in-between, but differences?

 

[rjack321]

Intro doesn't typically use doubles, Cave1 is in doubles
Intro doesn't allow Ts, Cave1 allows 1 T
Cave1 allows an OW gap, not specified in Intro

Both Intro and Cave1 don't allow jumps, circuits or traverses.

Apprentice does allow some of this stuff and its in doubles.

So really its not a 1-1 relationship. Some things in Intro are like Cave 1 (same amount of gas used for penetration). Some things in Apprentice are like Cave1, like Ts.

Cave2 is definately "Full Cave."

Cave3 is an experienced based "course" where you conduct exploration under an instructor/guide. Scooters, stages, deco, the works and you are your own support.

 

[H2Andy]

i don't know if this makes sense, but i've heard that Cave 1 is equivalent to Intro and some of Apprentice, and Cave 2 is the rest of Apprentice and Full Cave

so ... basically, GUE gets to full cave certification in 2 classes, and NACD does it in 3

 

[DhugalMac]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

Since ALL of my tech diving has been in doubles and my dive partners are GUE Cave 1 certified diving doubles, then it sounds as though my optimum choice to get comparably trained would be either:
* NACD Apprentice
* GUE Cave 1

Now, from a class duration perspective, the GUE Cave 1 takes GUE Fundamentals people to Cave 1 in 5 days duration (IF and ONLY IF proper skills are demonstrated).

That is a consideration when looking at total time-off-from-work and travel & lodging expenses, etc. -- coming from out of state these have some relevance.

Is there a comparable NACD course (maybe a Combo course?) which can take someone with a GUE Fundamentals cert (not that NACD cares about GUE certs, but from a skill-perspective) to Apprentice Cave in about the same duration?

 

[chickdiver]

Be advised that the NACD Apprentice certification is not really a "certification". It is the first half of Full Cave. The intention is that the individual will complete the other half of Full Cave within a 12 month period, and thusly, an Apprentice "certification" expires at the end of 12 months.

Your best best if you want to do an NACD program is to a week long Full Cave program, given that you already have experience with doubles. Forget about Apprentice, it won't really do you any good.

You would also be better off to discuss your particular situation with a couple of instructors as part of the process of choosing one. While forums such as this are great for a lot of things, getting info on which class is right for you when things are this complicated is not one of them.

Disclaimer** I am a former NACD Instructor, and currently a NAUI Tech Cave instructor.

 

[rjack321]

Whatever you do, I'd avoid a nothin' to full cave in a week type of blast. Take your time. Get the basic skills at the Intro/Cave1 level wired then move on. I'm doing the same thing right now.

 

[DhugalMac]

Come to the darkside..... we have cookies!

Well all of my tech diving certs are NAUI, but I found that getting a GUE Fundamentals-Tech cert helped enormously towards honing my tech skills .

NAUI Tech Cave ???
So now there is another wrinkle to consider throwing into the comparison????
How do those classes compare to the above?

Thanks for the info on the 12 month expiration of an NACD Apprentice cert. No one mentioned that 'gotcha' before.

GUE has a 25 skill-appropriate dives over 2 yrs 'expiration" meaning that if you don't keep your experience level up, you will lose the cert.
But if I was to get their cert and hadn't done 25 Cave dives over 2 yrs, how good would those skills be anyway?

But the way you describe it, it sounds like NACD's Apprentice 'expiration' is geared specifically towards moving students on to the the next cert level - Full Cave rather than towards keeping those skills 'current' by means of a minimum dive count.

It also sounds like, from the flights-to-Florida, time-off-of-work, and expense-staying-in-Fla perspective, that the week long Full Cave program would be the best approach if I choose going with NACD. Mulitple flights, multiple-days-off-work, etc. to get a single end-result cert. can get costly.

 

[chickdiver]

NAUI Tech Cave ???
So now there is another wrinkle to consider throwing into the comparison????
How do those classes compare to the above?

DhugalMac,

The NAUI Tech Cave program is designed for the diver who is already comfortable and experienced in doubles, and who already posseses good bouyancy control and trim. The structure is as follows:

Cave 1- ("recreational cave diving" my term, not anyone else's). A week long course which teaches proper line use techniques and emergency procedures for cave diving. Those earning this certification are qualified to plan and execute no-decompression cave dives utilizing up to 1/3 of backgas (doubles are REQUIRED), with no more than 2 navigational decisons (jumps, gaps or t's).

Cave 2- Introduces the experienced Cave 1 level diver to more advanced cave diving techniques such as staging and survey. Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures are pre-requisites for this course.

Cave 3- Exploration level cave diving.

Cave 1 is more closely compared to the NACD Apprectice course (without the expiration), while Cave 2 goes well beyond the requirements for NACD Full Cave. Cave 1 is roughly a 5 day program.

I hope that helps some, rather than muddying the waters further for you.

Best-
Heather