Cave diver dies in South-East (Australia)

[Dive-aholic]

It really depends on how you look at it, Barbara. Yes, it could be complacency (which I don't necessarily agree with at this point) or it could be lack of experience in a situation like that. I used to not drop as many markers. The way I viewed it was if there's already a marker at a T, why do I need to place an additional one. The farther I pushed into systems and the more Ts I passed, the more I started to rethink that. I now mark every T and even place additional markers along the line if I haven't seen one in a few minutes. Complacency didn't keep me from placing markers previously. Experience makes me place more markers now.

 

[TSandM]

I really like an idea that came up on CDF, that of "risk normalization". The concept is that, if you have taken a risk and gotten away with it, your subsequent perception of the magnitude of that risk is diminished. I think that impacts all of us who dive -- the general public thinks we're crazy for going underwater on life support equipment, lots of people who dive think those of us who dive in caves are crazy, and those of us who dive in caves may think people who pass no-mount restrictions are crazy. But the people who are DOING those things don't think they are, because of two factors: they have experience or competence that reduces risks that would be much higher for the rest of us, AND they're familiar (perhaps too familiar) with the process.

Someone I know said, the other day, something that struck me. People may say, "The risks are worth it," but if you told them that it was certain that they would die if they dove that day, probably no one would do that dive. People do these extreme dives because they do not believe the bill will come due, and every time they're right that belief becomes stronger. Eventually, I think they run the risk of beginning to think it will NEVER come due, and at that point, their risk mitigation starts to fall off. I think that's the root of what happened here, as best we will ever understand it.

I cannot imagine the personal experience of sitting in the dark, trying to work your way back through an uncooperative hole, knowing the seconds are ticking down, and waiting for that first breath of water. I do know that being a pretty conservative cave tourist will help me avoid ever being there, so that's what I am.

 

[ianr33]

''She probably went over at least eight or nine intersecting lines which she never marked,''

Anyone know if that means she did not mark them with her personal marker ,or that they were completely unmarked by anybody?

. The way I viewed it was if there's already a marker at a T, why do I need to place an additional one. The farther I pushed into systems and the more Ts I passed, the more I started to rethink that. I now mark every T and even place additional markers along the line if I haven't seen one in a few minutes. Complacency didn't keep me from placing markers previously. Experience makes me place more markers now.

The dives I'm doing only require 2 or 3 markers so its easy to just mark everything.
I understand the back of JB for example is a mas of T's. How many divers actually mark all of them?

 

[BgDadddy]

Most T's, particularly in less-traveled areas are un-marked. Little River and other tourist caves mark them, but they're the exceptions.

Not everyone marks their T's, but it is something that we are taught to do - everytime.

 

[alohagal]

I really like an idea that came up on CDF, that of "risk normalization". The concept is that, if you have taken a risk and gotten away with it, your subsequent perception of the magnitude of that risk is diminished. I think that impacts all of us who dive -- the general public thinks we're crazy for going underwater on life support equipment, lots of people who dive think those of us who dive in caves are crazy, and those of us who dive in caves may think people who pass no-mount restrictions are crazy. But the people who are DOING those things don't think they are, because of two factors: they have experience or competence that reduces risks that would be much higher for the rest of us, AND they're familiar (perhaps too familiar) with the process.

Someone I know said, the other day, something that struck me. People may say, "The risks are worth it," but if you told them that it was certain that they would die if they dove that day, probably no one would do that dive. People do these extreme dives because they do not believe the bill will come due, and every time they're right that belief becomes stronger. Eventually, I think they run the risk of beginning to think it will NEVER come due, and at that point, their risk mitigation starts to fall off. I think that's the root of what happened here, as best we will ever understand it.

I cannot imagine the personal experience of sitting in the dark, trying to work your way back through an uncooperative hole, knowing the seconds are ticking down, and waiting for that first breath of water. I do know that being a pretty conservative cave tourist will help me avoid ever being there, so that's what I am.

Very well stated! Ag likely did realize the 'bill was coming due' moments before her last breath was water and decided to remain "calm" to the end to seal her legacy as a fearless explorer. I think she made a conscious and instantaneous decision to leave with dignity.

The first drowning scene in "Sanctum" has haunted me since I saw it in the theater last month. It is made all the more poignant now. RIP Ag.

 

[TSandM]

There are two issues in play, when you get to dives with multiple T's. One is that you need to be able to figure out your exit direction at every intersection, even if you are stressed or cannot see. The other is that, the more navigational decisions a dive involves, the harder it becomes to remember every intersection you passed. That's why "complex navigation" is advanced diving.

I personally mark every intersection, every time (except when narced out and I forget -- and THAT won't happen again) AND I have also learned that there is a finite number of navigational decisions, beyond which I don't clearly remember our course. So I turn dives when I get there. Markers are insurance, but shouldn't be the primary way of knowing your way out.

 

[mdb]

It always astounds me that people say things like: "It won't happen to me, because-----" or, referring to a diver who died diving: "He/She was the best diver I ever knew."

The best diver I ever knew is still diving.

 

[Dive-aholic]

''She probably went over at least eight or nine intersecting lines which she never marked,''

Anyone know if that means she did not mark them with her personal marker ,or that they were completely unmarked by anybody?

Because this was mentioned in conjunction with her being lost, my guess is they were completely unmarked. But that's just a guess.

The dives I'm doing only require 2 or 3 markers so its easy to just mark everything.
I understand the back of JB for example is a mas of T's. How many divers actually mark all of them?

I do now. There was a time when I didn't because there were already markers there. However, I've come back on intersections that I was pretty sure I had already passed, but because I had decided to rely on the permanent marker, I didn't mark it so 100% certainty wasn't there. That doesn't mean I mark the gold line Ts in JB (I don't), but I do mark every white line T I pass. I just used about 8-9 markers on my last dive. And now I have to go back and retrieve them because it was part of a circuit that I completed before having to turn. I have a spool to retrieve as well.

 

[ItsBruce]

I am fascinated by the navigation and marking aspects of cave diving. Is there anywhere I can read more about this. NOTE: I expressly plan NEVER to dive in caves, so don't worry that I'm going to try to bypass proper training. I'm just interested in the navigation issues. Thanks.

 

[ItsBruce]

I'd like to comment on the concept of experience. I'm not a cave diver, but I do lots of otherwise hazardous things that require substantial experience.

I agree that there are two components of experience. One is the time to develop skills. The other is the time to see and deal with novel situations. They are both essential. They develop at different rates. Both require time. Experience with a particular situation may help one deal with a new situation. But only dealing with the new situation increases one's experience. Dealing with it in the wrong way probably provides more experience than dealing with it the right way, provided, of course, one figures out the right way. One learns more from mistakes than successes because mistakes teach what not to do while success does not necessarily teach what not to do. Not encountering a particular hazardous situation is often, though not always, a matter of luck (defined as the convergence of preparation and opportunity), rather than skill. Then, when luck runs out, one will not have had the opportunity to solve a problem.

I don't want to dive with a lucky diver, climb with a lucky climber, sail with a lucky sailor or fly with a lucky pilot. I have no way of knowing what will happen when luck runs out. I want to go with those who have bad things happen (though not as a result of lack of initial skill) and who is able to overcome those.