Cavern Equipment/Restrictions ( Long Post Sorry)

[brutus_scuba]

I took my cavern diver course this weekend. I learned a lot. The instructor busted me a little for trim at the begging but we got that worked out and started working on the other things we had to cover in the class. We worked on reels. What a cavern is? Okayed the line. Buddy breated across a line. Laid line arrows and cookies. worked on touch contact, and tought us to rely almost souly on the frog kick. We did a lot of this class work in ginnie springs, blue grotto and Devils Den in N. Florida. So here are my questions for the cavers.

For the class we were not forced to have doubles or even an H-valve for the class they allowed us to take the class with a single-80 and a K-vavle but we did have the long hose with a necklace around the secondary second stage. WE also had to have a primary light and two back up lights but did not have to have an HID or anything. Lastly one person in the team had to have reel not every person had to have a real. Remebering that we won't be traveling in more than 130 foot penetration. WE wont' go deeper then 70 feet and well never lose track of the ambient light (not intentionally at least) do you think that doubles should be required for entering a cavern? Or at least more redundancy then was offered?
And another side note question. Do you think that the Cavern definition of "130 foot linear penetration, 70 foot depth and 40 foot vis with ambient light always being present is too unforgiving to cavern divers.

The reason I ask is because we did dive the Devils eye or ear I forget which one (the one closer to the river beneath the trees with the strong current), and the ambient light was very strong while we were down there we could see it at all times no body went past the Cave sign a cave diver coming out of the cave grabbed me and my buddy and gave us the thumbs up sign. I came up immediatly figuring I never know why she wants me to come up she may see something I don't when we got to the top it was expressed that she thought we should wear full cave gear to go into a cavern. Even though we were with my instructor who was wearing doubles, and was watchign over us and taking us down two at a time.

Until this weekend I had no desire to buy tech diving gear. I thought I would be happy the rest of my life without diving a cave. But after this weekend I think that the next BCD I'll buy will be a dive-rite transpack (b/c I will dive 40 foot quarries most the time I think diving doubles would be overkill but it would be nice to have doubles for trips to FL and to slowly get into Cave diving as I can afford the equipment and classes, but right now I'm a poor college student. The next class I plan on taking is Adv. Nitrox. I guess I figure that if I had to have doubles to dive a cavern I never would have had the world opened up to me, and it introduced me into tech diving which is the route I wanna go now.

 

[karstdvr]

For the class we were not forced to have doubles or even an H-valve for the class they allowed us to take the class with a single-80 and a K-vavle but we did have the long hose with a necklace around the secondary second stage. WE also had to have a primary light and two back up lights but did not have to have an HID or anything. Lastly one person in the team had to have reel not every person had to have a real. Remebering that we won't be traveling in more than 130 foot penetration. WE wont' go deeper then 70 feet and well never lose track of the ambient light (not intentionally at least) do you think that doubles should be required for entering a cavern? Or at least more redundancy then was offered?
And another side note question. Do you think that the Cavern definition of "130 foot linear penetration, 70 foot depth and 40 foot vis with ambient light always being present is too unforgiving to cavern divers.

.

Doubles for cavern is overkill,and redundancy such as an H valve is nice but unneeded. If you are diving with in the limits of the cavern class and with NDL,then ascent to the surface is not a problem,even with a blown burst disk. To answer the question about being unforgiving,one would need to look how many fatalities have there been with this configuration-the best to my knowledge none. There have been accidents in the cavern zone,but this is typically untrained OW divers. Enjoy your cavern dives,because there is a lot to see in the cavern zone. I've been cave diving for over 10 years,and end most dives with an excursion in the cavern zone just because there is so much to see.

 

[scubafool]

For the class we were not forced to have doubles or even an H-valve for the class they allowed us to take the class with a single-80 and a K-vavle but we did have the long hose with a necklace around the secondary second stage. WE also had to have a primary light and two back up lights but did not have to have an HID or anything. Lastly one person in the team had to have reel not every person had to have a real.

The requirments were the same for my cavern class about 2 years ago. But ask yourself this question. Is it possible to lose visibility and lose the line? I personally always carry a safety reel and a spool every overhead dive, and I practice lost line drills regularily.

Remebering that we won't be traveling in more than 130 foot penetration. WE wont' go deeper then 70 feet and well never lose track of the ambient light (not intentionally at least) do you think that doubles should be required for entering a cavern? Or at least more redundancy then was offered?

That is a question that you need to answer personally, as it depends on the amount of risk that you are willing to take on. I started out as I said with a single and a K valve. As time went on and I thought about it more, I got to the point where I would only dive that configuration with a known buddy whom I could trust. I prefer doubles, as I own a set and do almost all of my dives in them, but I would not hesitate to dive a single with an H valve in almost any cavern.

And another side note question. Do you think that the Cavern definition of "130 foot linear penetration, 70 foot depth and 40 foot vis with ambient light always being present is too unforgiving to cavern divers.

No I don't.

Just consider having a gas loss issue at the limits of those definitions late in the dive. You are nearing your turn pressure, you have built up some nitrogen loading, and you are slightly freaked by the fact that one of you has no gas left to breathe. So here you are sharing air, worrying about having to ascend too fast and getting bent, sucking down a lot more gas than normal because the both of you are freaked.

Now, do these limits seem too constricting at THAT point?

The reason I ask is because we did dive the Devils eye or ear I forget which one (the one closer to the river beneath the trees with the strong current), and the ambient light was very strong while we were down there we could see it at all times no body went past the Cave sign a cave diver coming out of the cave grabbed me and my buddy and gave us the thumbs up sign. I came up immediatly figuring I never know why she wants me to come up she may see something I don't when we got to the top it was expressed that she thought we should wear full cave gear to go into a cavern. Even though we were with my instructor who was wearing doubles, and was watchign over us and taking us down two at a time.

Make your own decisions, but think it through first.

And enjoy the caverns. I do.

 

[loosebits]

I took my cavern diver course this weekend. I learned a lot. The instructor busted me a little for trim at the begging but we got that worked out and started working on the other things we had to cover in the class. We worked on reels. What a cavern is? Okayed the line. Buddy breated across a line. Laid line arrows and cookies. worked on touch contact, and tought us to rely almost souly on the frog kick. We did a lot of this class work in ginnie springs, blue grotto and Devils Den in N. Florida. So here are my questions for the cavers.

Does anyone else find it odd to be dropping arrows and cookies in a cavern class?

For the class we were not forced to have doubles or even an H-valve for the class they allowed us to take the class with a single-80 and a K-vavle but we did have the long hose with a necklace around the secondary second stage. WE also had to have a primary light and two back up lights but did not have to have an HID or anything. Lastly one person in the team had to have reel not every person had to have a real.

2 lights are the minimum for cavern. A long hose isn't required either. But every diver in the team should have a safety spool/reel with at least 150' of line on it.

Remebering that we won't be traveling in more than 130 foot penetration. WE wont' go deeper then 70 feet and well never lose track of the ambient light (not intentionally at least) do you think that doubles should be required for entering a cavern? Or at least more redundancy then was offered?

Required? I don't know. I sure wouldn't want to be in an overhead without them.

And another side note question. Do you think that the Cavern definition of "130 foot linear penetration, 70 foot depth and 40 foot vis with ambient light always being present is too unforgiving to cavern divers.

Well, most caverns you find in FL, its not the 130' that will limit you (didn't they recently change this to 200'?) as caverns don't seem that big (of course, I am a very bad judge of distances). But without requiring double tanks or at least an H, going any further would be rolling the dice. So its a trade off, the low cost of entry means tight restrictions on what you can do. Remember, cavern isn't generally considered technical diving (evidenced by the fact that PADI has it as a specialty along with shark diver).

The reason I ask is because we did dive the Devils eye or ear I forget which one (the one closer to the river beneath the trees with the strong current), and the ambient light was very strong while we were down there we could see it at all times no body went past the Cave sign a cave diver coming out of the cave grabbed me and my buddy and gave us the thumbs up sign. I came up immediatly figuring I never know why she wants me to come up she may see something I don't when we got to the top it was expressed that she thought we should wear full cave gear to go into a cavern. Even though we were with my instructor who was wearing doubles, and was watchign over us and taking us down two at a time.

Since there are so many OW divers in the area, the cave diver probably assumed that you were one. If I saw a diver in there with a single tank/k-valve I'd do the same. Btw, I believe that if you saw the sign, you were in the cave well past the cavern zone. As I recall the definition of cavern isn't that you can still see some ambient light (e.g. light reflecting off of rocks) but light from the surface is able to reach you directly (you should be able to actually see OW). The phrase is "direct sunlight". I don't believe the Devil's Ear has much of a cavern, as soon as you turn the corner (way before the sign), you are in the cave.

Until ths weekend I had no desire to buy tech diving gear. I thought I would be happy the rest of my life without diving a cave. But after this weekend I think that the next BCD I'll buy will be a dive-rite transpack (b/c I will dive 40 foot quarries most the time I think diving doubles would be overkill but it would be nice to have doubles for trips to FL and to slowly get into Cave diving as I can afford the equipment and classes, but right now I'm a poor college student. The next class I plan on taking is Adv. Nitrox. I guess I figure that if I had to have doubles to dive a cavern I never would have had the world opened up to me, and it introduced me into tech diving which is the route I wanna go now.

Sounds like you got bit. Any reason for taking adv nitrox prior to intro? Unless you're doing some local diving that would require deco, I think the usual progression is to take adv nitrox between intro and apprentice/full (or with apprentice/full). Not that it matters but you're really not going to see any benefit to adv nitrox in cave diving until you get to the full cave level (no decompression allowed at the intro level, it doesn't matter if you are deco certified).

 

[karstdvr]

Since there are so many OW divers in the area, the cave diver probably assumed that you were one. If I saw a diver in there with a single tank/k-valve I'd do the same. Btw, I believe that if you saw the sign, you were in the cave well past the cavern zone. As I recall the definition of cavern isn't that you can still see some ambient light (e.g. light reflecting off of rocks) but light from the surface is able to reach you directly (you should be able to actually see OW). The phrase is "direct sunlight". I don't believe the Devil's Ear has much of a cavern, as soon as you turn the corner (way before the sign), you are in the cave.



.

If I see a single tank diver in a cave and wonder if it is an OW diver I look for a reel as to whether they are cavern certified. OW divers sneak in lights all the time,but never see reels with the ones sneaking in. Also the snorkle is a dead give away

 

[mania]

I personally always carry a safety reel and a spool every overhead dive, and I practice lost line drills regularily.

Oh yes, you do... And you use it when I don't think

I prefer doubles, as I own a set and do almost all of my dives in them, but I would not hesitate to dive a single with an H valve in almost any cavern.

I still think doubles are way safer for any dive as a matter of fact. maybe this is because I'm coming form a country that has rather cold water, so frozen regulators are not uncommon thing here. Ddoubles give you a better chance....
As scubafool - saying this it doesn't mean Idon't dive singles - yes I do. But then I plan the dive before so that I would have sufficient amount of air, because:

Just consider having a gas loss issue at the limits of those definitions late in the dive. You are nearing your turn pressure, you have built up some nitrogen loading, and you are slightly freaked by the fact that one of you has no gas left to breathe. So here you are sharing air, worrying about having to ascend too fast and getting bent, sucking down a lot more gas than normal because the both of you are freaked.

Caverns are overhead environment whether you have direct access to surface or not.
So let's take all possible precautions.
Mania

 

[Dive-aholic]

Most of your questions have been answered already. And the cave v. cavern zone definition has been addressed in another thread. I just wanted to add another comment here. Don't think diving doubles in a 40' quarry is overkill. That's where you should do your first several dozen dives in doubles. That's where you'll become proficient in diving doubles. Then you want to progress to the caves. I've done dozens of dives in doubles to no more than 25 feet in a local lake, and still do more. This is where I work on my trim and buoyancy and keep those skills up so I'll be comfortable in caves.

 

[brutus_scuba]

Does anyone else find it odd to be dropping arrows and cookies in a cavern class?






Sounds like you got bit. Any reason for taking adv nitrox prior to intro? Unless you're doing some local diving that would require deco, I think the usual progression is to take adv nitrox between intro and apprentice/full (or with apprentice/full). Not that it matters but you're really not going to see any benefit to adv nitrox in cave diving until you get to the full cave level (no decompression allowed at the intro level, it doesn't matter if you are deco certified).

Yeah my reason for the Adv. Nitrox first would simply be because I can get it taught to me in Ohio, and by an instructor I know and feel very good about. Furthere more as it is brought up below I know that I need to do plenty of dives in the quarry with doubles before I take them into cave country, so I figure Ill go out there and do that on my own but I also figure if I get in a class with an instructor when I"m tryig to get acclamated with doubles he might have some constructive things to help me out. When I said I feel that diving doubles in a 40 foot quarry was overkill I should have been more specific, I would not want to make a permenant switch over to dobules, that is why I think I like the trans pac b/c it lets you switch between doubles and singles.

Also I don't knwo if it makes a difference for requirments but the class was not a PADI course it was a Y course so that may explain why it was tought to us as 130' and not 200' and I'm goign to look up the ambient vs. direct sunlight thing but I do know my instructor said ambient light.

 

[brutus_scuba]

If I see a single tank diver in a cave and wonder if it is an OW diver I look for a reel as to whether they are cavern certified. OW divers sneak in lights all the time,but never see reels with the ones sneaking in. Also the snorkle is a dead give away

Well I had a real and left the snorkle in Ohio

And for Scuba Fool I'm sorry I wasn't trying to make a case that I should be able to go further I was wondering if cavers thought that cavern divers shouldn't be able to go 130' feet even. I guess what I was asking is weather or not you thought you should have to be a caver to even drop in to the overhead enviroment

 

[Dive-aholic]

Any bp/w set up will let you switch between doubles and single tank. You just need an STA to dive single tank. All I dive now it bp/w.

As for the ambient v. direct sunlight, the terminology is the day light zone. Basically, the way it was explained to me when I took cavern was if you can see day light, you are in the cavern zone (as long as you're within the other limitations). You were still in the cavern zone on the exit side of the sign in the Ear. BTW, there is a spot in Ginnie cavern that is outside of the cavern zone.