Ccr Diver From Ohio Died In Ginnie Springs Today...

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As a private pilot - I'll read NTSB aviation accident reports - with the hope of better understanding the cause of someone's misfortune - so that I may avoid similar circumstances. They don't contain speculation, personal attacks, or one of several other forms of misinformation.

Rarely - if ever - do posts on internet blogs and forums about scuba accidents contain the same quality of objective information. It's unfortunate that a similar mechanism doesn't exist. The IUCRR's reports were pretty decent - and the last one they did was in 2008... :(
 
So I've been on this board since June 2015 and frequent this A&I forum often and I've found it to be quite informative and educational as the discussion is more fluid and hypothesis and theories along with facts help to understand how to deal with different situations. Isn't that the purpose? To learn.

Furthermore, I've seen quite a few threads where investigators, family members, parties involved, etc. have come forward with the story, facts and excellent investigative work. Do all incidents get solved? Of course not, but to criticize this platform as basically being useless unless there is stringent oversight of what gets posted because we're not all trained accident analysis experts doesn't help anyone.

In fact, have you ever read the annual DAN accident reports? I find them to be uninformative as they go through each accident in a paragraph or two.

This isn't a professional accident analysis report being conducted by folks on salary and while I agree wild speculation is not good, hypothesizing different scenarios related to the accident and discussing how to solve them is very helpful. It may just save someone's life.
 
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As a private pilot - I'll read NTSB aviation accident reports - with the hope of better understanding the cause of someone's misfortune - so that I may avoid similar circumstances. They don't contain speculation, personal attacks, or one of several other forms of misinformation.

Rarely - if ever - do posts on internet blogs and forums about scuba accidents contain the same quality of objective information. It's unfortunate that a similar mechanism doesn't exist. The IUCRR's reports were pretty decent - and the last one they did was in 2008... :(

But therein you actually have the nub of the problem. NTSB reports are completed by trained investigators with access to all the information, statements and physical evidence, and are written from a professional point of view. They are not rushed out into the public purview, and are considered, proof read, and checked by colleagues before publication.

As a senior investigator I used to compile similar reports in the police, for coroners, courts and other judicial processes. I investigated industrial deaths,road fatalities, a couple of fatalities resulting from light aircraft crashes, one from a helicopter, a couple of parachutists whose chutes didn't open and several glider crashes, amongst several hundred others.

I never made any public comment or statement until I was satisfied I had all the facts carefully lined up and analysed. It was always a deliberate policy that the investigator did not talk to the press directly, that way nothing could be inadvertently revealed. We prepared a script, a press officer delivered it, and dealt with questions. If questions related to facts not in the script they did not comment, if questions related to general policies or procedures they were free to address them.

Internet forums are not the same sort of environment at all, there is no official access to the facts or evidence, unless a participant decides to provide details, and are like the press, what they don't know they fill in with speculation and supposition.

I would also caution against taking first hand witnesses accounts at face value until they have been considered and compared to others. I can assure you from first hand experience everyone sees an incident from a different viewpoint, focusses on different aspects that hold some relevance for them, and no two people see or remember an event exactly the same way. They are not lying, but personal background and experience will colour their memory. It is also necessary to remember that witnesses have their own emotions to deal with, and can focus on certain aspects and ignore others quite inadvertently.

Sadly we will have to deal with the shortcomings of internet fora because their is no professional national body to investigate scuba accidents, and no authority that is going to have all the facts that they are going to share.

So the best we can do is take what we do know, without blame storming or pompous posturing consider what it MAY mean if we have it right, and then use the discussions as a learning tool to prevent other accidents in the future.

I deliberately say OTHER accidents, and NOT other SIMILAR accidents, because we may not know what actually happened, but discussing what to do if you see someone going in circles whilst using a rebreather, or if someone has a CO2 hit, or hypercapnia may educate readers and help someone one day in the future if that particular situation does occur, even if that is NOT what happened this time.

In that spirit lets discuss what we know, what may have happened and how it may have been avoided or help provided, but lets not assume that is what happened or try to apportion blame.

Dive safe - Phil.
 
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Here is my wish list for accident analysis:
Rebreather or OC?
Type of rebreather?
Sidemount or backmount?
Deep or shallow?
Large or tight passage?
Solo or buddy?
Experience in hours on unit?
Number of dives at system?
Time since last dive?
Physical fitness?
Mental state of mind, calm, anxious
Any failures that preceded the dive maybe during build of unit?
Self packed scrubber vs EAC?
Hours on current scrubber?
Cell life, age, type?
BOV present or DSV?
Etc, etc...

You omit one of the most significant items that should be scrutinized in any dive accident - a detailed gas analysis. Not just O2 percentages, but analysis for contaminants. And unfortunately in many instances this is overlooked as there are only a couple of facilities that have the capability to do a full, thorough analysis. Having experienced a cave dive with tainted gas that resulted in significant mental incapacity at the time, it was only recognized by my buddies due to my odd behavior during the dive. I am *NOT* saying that has anything to do with it in this instance, but it should be considered.
 
aue-mike, do you mean in the diver's bail-out?
 
aue-mike, do you mean in the diver's bail-out?
It would need to include his Diluent and O2 cylinders as well.

Recall the incident of a diver a few years ago - who expired in a cave in Mexico. His gas was contaminated by CO. When he lost consciousness, it appeared that he was attempting to bail out (BOV in OC mode, BO reg deployed. However, bailing out when one is experiencing the effects of contaminated gas - is not going to resolve your symptoms.
 
I deliberately say OTHER accidents, and NOT other SIMILAR accidents, because we may not know what actually happened, but discussing what to do if you see someone going in circles whilst using a rebreather, or if someone has a CO2 hit, or hypercapnia may educate readers and help someone one day in the future if that particular situation does occur, even if that is NOT what happened this time.

In that spirit lets discuss what we know, what may have happened and how it may have been avoided or help provided, but lets not assume that is what happened or try to apportion blame.

Dive safe - Phil.

I wish we had a LOVE button for this post, especially these last lines.

When the SHTF, feeling helpless and unknowing is awful. That is why I take and keep up all my first aid training, and seek more.
 
**MOD Post**

A couple of posts have started to creep in that really should not have been here, I have deleted them. Lets not mention people by name or get off topic, you know who your are guys, lets keep the thread useful - thanks - P
 
So I've been on this board since June 2015 and frequent this A&I forum often and I've found it to be quite informative and educational as the discussion is more fluid and hypothesis and theories along with facts help to understand how to deal with different situations. Isn't that the purpose? To learn.

Furthermore, I've seen quite a few threads where investigators, family members, parties involved, etc. have come forward with the story, facts and excellent investigative work. Do all incidents get solved? Of course not, but to criticize this platform as basically being useless unless there is stringent oversight of what gets posted because we're not all trained accident analysis experts doesn't help anyone.

In fact, have you ever read the annual DAN accident reports? I find them to be uninformative as they go through each accident in a paragraph or two.

This isn't a professional accident analysis report being conducted by folks on salary and while I agree wild speculation is not good, hypothesizing different scenarios related to the accident and discussing how to solve them is very helpful. It may just save someone's life.

I couldn't agree more with this. Reading this A&I forum regularly makes me think above and below the water about all aspects of diving.

$.02
 
They are not lying, but personal background and experience will colour their memory. It is also necessary to remember that witnesses have their own emotions to deal with, and can focus on certain aspects and ignore others quite inadvertently.
Sometimes they are lying.

I do some lower level investigations of dive incidents--I may end up working on this one. I have not done all that many, but in interviewing participants, I have had to deal with direct contradictions describing what happened, and I have at times been convinced that people were indeed deliberately lying. There can be a variety of incentives to do so.
 

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