Question CCR for recreational depths

[broncobowsher]

The Choptima guys thump there chest pretty good as well.

 

[AJ]

All objective reasons aside, yesterday I dove OC for the first time in 2 years. Have been solely diving my JJ all that time.

Pro's OC versus CCR:
- Simple, a lot less fuss kitting up.
- My lungs worked again, aka I could ascend and descend by changing lung capacity.
- It was fun to get back to my diving roots

Con's OC versus CCR:
- What I noticed was how noisy OC is. At the start of dive mostly noticed it. I got used to it later on, but it's still very loud compared to CC.
- Cold. I got quite a bit colder than with my CCR.
- Gas anxienty. Not really an issue using just half a 12l, but with my CCR I don't care about gas at all. It's a non issue with CCR.

In retrospect, will I choose on or the other? Nope, I like both of them for very specific reasons. The dive type will be the deciding factor which set I will use. It's a luxury to have that choice.

 

[Wibble]

All objective reasons aside, yesterday I dove OC for the first time in 2 years. Have been solely diving my JJ all that time.

Pro's OC versus CCR:
- Simple, a lot less fuss kitting up.
- My lungs worked again, aka I could ascend and descend by changing lung capacity.
- It was fun to get back to my diving roots

Con's OC versus CCR:
- What I noticed was how noisy OC is. At the start of dive mostly noticed it. I got used to it later on, but it's still very loud compared to CC.
- Cold. I got quite a bit colder than with my CCR.
- Gas anxienty. Not really an issue using just half a 12l, but with my CCR I don't care about gas at all. It's a non issue with CCR.

In retrospect, will I choose on or the other? Nope, I like both of them for very specific reasons. The dive type will be the deciding factor which set I will use. It's a luxury to have that choice.

Must have been really strange to..

• Not be constantly concerned of the myriad ways the single cylinder was not trying to kill you
• Did you miss carrying that extra bailout cylinder
• Miss the flashing lights/nerd in your eyeline
• Miss the 10 minutes of pre-dive preparation as you go through the checklists of making sure it's working
• Miss the bulk of the backmount rebreather

What did you do with all the extra time you would normally need to prepare your equipment prior to the dive?

 

[Wibble]

I started this thread to take the temp of where the rebreathers were at relative to open circuit. I think the very long projections on CCR becoming mainstream is going to happen a lot faster than many think. The first step is to make them reliable and moderately idiot proof. There is a ways to go on that, but it will come.

The big breakthrough will come when dive resorts start offering them as an option. and regular divers get to go on dives where they are engaging sea life with no bubbles. Watching sharks, turtles, seals etc. with no bubbles to spook the animals. Divers will go home and start shelling out money for them and reserving them on trips. The big dangers of them will be the ability to screw the pooch on deco. One of the saving graces of the traditional Al 80 is that most newbie divers can't stay down on an 80 long enough to get seriously into a serious deco obligation.

There was a time when everyone would think that mixed gasses were to complicated for the masses. Nitrox is almost ubiquitous and dive computers have pretty much made it idiot proof. Some types of diving with mixed gasses are still very technical with a limited appeal, but recreational diving with nitrox is no big deal.

I could see some variation of CCR becoming widely used by recreational divers. Technology will find a solution for the question of how to monitor CO2 scrubbing and make it pretty safe for all but the least competent of divers. Charters will start splitting off for the rebreather only excursions and those for open circuit crowd. I am pretty sure that is already true for some places.

Cost *has* to be a considerable factor in the adoption of CCR in a recreational context.

For $10k you could probably buy 10 sets of recreational single-cylinder equipment: regs, BCD, weights, two cylinders. (Please don't haggle over this as resort kit is cheap and bought in bulk -- it'll be around that price if not considerably less.)

For around $10k you'd get one or two rebreathers (with all the kit).

Rebreather consumables are expensive; lime, pure oxygen, cells. Compared with OC where you'd have a compressor and membrane compressor (which would also be needed for CCR).

Maintenance of CCR in a recreational context is a *lot* of hassle. Your tank monkey will need to build the "10" rebreathers and make sure they're all working. Compare that with filling the 20 tanks (2 dives) which is a pretty low-skilled task that doesn't need anywhere near the same levels of concentration to build a CCR.

Recreational divers will break your kit. Loop floods? Throwing the kit around? Breaking cables?

Training requirements for CCR is much greater.

Then there's the probable need for a lower DiveMASTER to punter ratio to ensure the customers don't kill themselves -- didn't turn the O2 on again...? Therefore need more DiveMASTERs and better skilled ones at that.

Sticking neck out here: CCR is 10x more expensive than open circuit.

What about the costs and experience of running a Mares Horizon SCR? Much better for recreational use.

 

[Wibble]

Initial cost would drop in volume. The RD1 Rebreather which restarted this thread goes for $2K + BPW setup now, and would be even less in volume.

Sorry, that number's way out. The website says $1850 for an OXYGEN rebreather.

No computers, HUD, solenoid, etc.

That's no comment on the RD1 concept which seems great. But the costs for a fully-functioning rebreather are a lot more than that price. A Shearwater Petrel costs almost that amount!

 

[berndo]

I think the very long projections on CCR becoming mainstream is going to happen a lot faster than many think. The first step is to make them reliable and moderately idiot proof.

I doubt it. Plenty of manufacturers have tried to push into the rec market over the last 30 years. They all failed.
Rebreather don't really have any meaningful advantage over OC in the typical vacation diver's range between 30' and 100' for under 60 min. They have a bunch of meaningful disadvantages though.
Just look at the 'cheap' Poseidon rec unit for example. It's been out for years and you still never see it. People don't want it.

 

[berndo]

It is less expensive too dive my CCR than to dive nitrox. It's not complex at all. Training and gear is a sunk cost.

It's not less expensive to dive CCR. It is way more complex and the gear is not sunk cost as most decent ccr can be sold without losing that much money.

 

[Germie]

It is a multiple problem issuse why you don't see ccr's a lot in recreational diving.

The first thing are for sure the costs. Why spent that amount of money for the gear, but also per dive for just a recreational dive?
Then second, divecenters don't like it. You still can just dive max 45-60 minutes, you still have to follow a guide, you still get buddies up with an open circuit diver.
Thirds, divecenters don't have sorb or oxygen and bailout tanks.

And 4th, also really important: where you friends are already drinking beer, you have to disemble and clean your unit. This is a really annoying thing.
Rebreatherdiving costs more time. If you cannot do this, then don't go rebreather diving. It is not a tool you throw in an edge and it will work the next day again.

 

[OceanOpportunity]

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[OceanOpportunity]

This is a good observation, shallow water diving with some ups and downs is the hardest thing to do.

absolutely, among other things. The two highest risk phases of any dive are the first 20', and the last 20'. These tend to be the most task loaded (transitions to/from water, fixing tools/accessories, riding out decompression, dealing with surge/waves, etc). On rebreathers, this is also where the hypoxia accidents tend to occur. Instructing to operate there in the shallows, both mechanically and physiologically, addresses the bulk of what a well tuned rebreather diver should be proficient with. By teaching with O2 only, we can reduce the risk of hypoxia during training (with a good flush, another important skill), and just focus on how to manage the dive and the breathing atmosphere