Certification Training Differences - Holy War?

[JustAddWater]

My open water certification and advance courses have been through SSI. I have been very pleased with my training; much to the credit of my instructor. Since all of my training has has been through SSI, I really can't make comparisons with other agencies. My wife, brother in law, and diver friends were trained by other schools, yet share the basic diving tenets that I was taught. Are there differences in training philosophy between the schools? Are they more apparent in advanved training?

 

[budgy]

With regards to any training agencies and the new diver; They are great fun but teach only the basics, and experience only comes with regular practice. I don't think it really matters how good the instructor is; no 4/5 dive certificated diver buddy's should be diving in low visibility tidal waters with cross currents. In safe sheltered water with good visibilty and shallow depths you should be okay.

 

[WetDane]

Well - I wonder if I'm the only one who thinks this - or maybe it is just not a popular opinion - but then I have had my share of those in my day -

has it ocurred to anyone that OW class is like bending over and begging to get screwed - they teach the student precisely enough to make them purchase equipment and nothing more -

Get your OW anywhere - agency smagency - standards - whatever - the standards all these places run are a joke.
When you have OW, go get a fundamentals class - then you will actually learn to dive... Btw - if you locate the place that offers a fundamentals class ahead of time - you are likely to get a more solid OW training.

Big T

That's my opinion

 

[Liquid]

I haven't read all the previuse messages, just a few, so if what I'm going to say was already said, forgive me.

Difference in course contents-
As all the american agencys(aka all the big agencys ) are bound to use the minimal standards set by the RSTC (recreatinal scuba teaching commity!?) the differences in the basics of the courses are quite small, as no organization will give much higher standrads, becuse it will damage it's profits (most people today want to do everything as fast and cheap as posiible).

In the basic courses the difference is almost none, the agencys may varry in the ways they want their instructors to teach, but not in the contents of they teach.

In the moore advanced courses (DM/DIVECON and higher) the difference begins to grow, but again, mostly not in the contents of the course (you will alwais be tought more about marketing than about diving in any instructor course), but in the relation you are going to have with the agency that was incharge of your training. For example- SSI is an organization of dive-centers, and therefor the profesionals trianed by SSI are limited to being emplyed only by SSI shops, and are not alowed to work independently, while any PADI instructor can take some students with him and deliver a course without any kind of observation.

 

[neil]

Originally posted by WetDane
Well - I wonder if I'm the only one who thinks this - or maybe it is just not a popular opinion - but then I have had my share of those in my day -

has it ocurred to anyone that OW class is like bending over and begging to get screwed - they teach the student precisely enough to make them purchase equipment and nothing more -

Get your OW anywhere - agency smagency - standards - whatever - the standards all these places run are a joke.
When you have OW, go get a fundamentals class - then you will actually learn to dive... Btw - if you locate the place that offers a fundamentals class ahead of time - you are likely to get a more solid OW training.

Big T

That's my opinion

Dane,
Frankly, your opinion IMHO, is wrong-headed AND insulting! There are instructors, like me, who think they do a pretty good job teaching folks to dive. Beginning classes are just that. The DIR fundamentals course is still an add-on course, which requires that you are already certified and have 25 dives. And don't you have to own your own gear, too?

The standards are not a joke, they are a basis for a complete overview of skills needed. Here it is in bold letters for you: EVERY SKILL TAUGHT IN A DIRF CLASS IS TAUGHT IN MY CLASSES, EXCEPT AT A BEGINNERS' LEVEL. Equipment standardization, buoyancy control, buddy procedures, safety drills, dive planning. Okay, no lift bag deployment, sue me. The problem is this: instructors are not taught as well as they used to be. It is IMO, too easy to become one. There is nothing wrong with the standards of most agencies; it's the implementation of them that stinks to a large degree. You can be sure that once GUE has enough instructors out there, you'll hear reports of some not strictly adhering to standards.

Your assertion that shops only teach to sell gear may be true here and there, but on the whole I believe shop owners and instructors enjoy the teaching too. The shop exists to make money, why should they be apologetic about wanting to sell stuff. What are YOU giving away this week?

No, it has never ocurred to me that an OW class is like bending over and begging to get screwed. My first class was wonderful. The classes I teach are mostly fun for me, and the students have a great time, with few exceptions. I don't sell gear to my students, but I advise them on what to buy, based on my experience. That's my job. That happens in a DIRF class, too, doesn't it?

And that's MY opinion. Pbbthhh!

Neil

PS Yes, Dane, you're the ONLY one who thinks that!

 

[WetDane]

Well, if it is insulting - then that is a good thing - because that might get you to up the ante a bit - however - I will hold on to my opinion that the agency does not matter -
after I posted this we talked about this stuff and I think a modification is that regardless of agency - the specific instructor is the core of the training and where I'm sure you train people right - the person who introduced me to diving, well, he did not lead me in the right direction and he does not by most standards have a clue how to dive.


Ok - reading that I was a little over the edge - and I can agree with you on most things - I just still think there is something significant lacking and you're right - I don't think it is DIR that is going to solve it - then again - what do I care - I'm not an instructor, have no plans to become one and I give away free guided dives to anyone who wants them - just about everyday of the week - AND I still buy my own gear.

Oh - and thank you for establishing that I'm the only one who thinks that - it makes me pretty happy.

Oh well - I think I'm going to go diving.
BigT

 

[neil]

Originally posted by WetDane

- then again - what do I care - I'm not an instructor, have no plans to become one and I give away free guided dives to anyone who wants them - just about everyday of the week - AND I still buy my own gear.
Oh - and thank you for establishing that I'm the only one who thinks that - it makes me pretty happy.
BigT

T,
Obviously you DO care because we're having this conversation. You care because you perceive that some divers are not diving safely and want to improve on that. You care because you take people diving for FUN! And for free. I thank you for that, seriously. (I'm just in it for the money, yeah right!) On the other hand, you are the type of person who probably SHOULD become an instructor. A bit of ego, a desire to do things better, a love of working with people, some superior diving knowledge, and off you go, creating little WedDane divers! THEN you and I can sit down and discuss what it's really like to teach beginners. It's not that easy (anyone who says it is, isn't "doing it right"), and you can't teach 'em everything in one course. Sorry your first diving course sucked, you seem to have recovered nicely. Peace,

Neil

PS You're NOT the only one to think that way. I lied. Can't have you being happy about that

 

[Walter]

Neil,

You are correct, he is not the only one who thinks that. I pretty much agree with him. While all instructors are certainly not like that, IMHO, most are. Many of them aren't that way consciously, they simply don't know any better. Not knowing any better doesn't stop them from being incompetent. I do disagree that the agency does not matter, the agency makes a big difference. Few instructors will stay with an agency with a philosophy which differs from their own. Birds of a feather.

DSSW,

WWW™

 

[jmsdiver]

I do have to agree with many of the comments from the previous posts. I do believe that it is much too easy to become an instructor in some agencies; PADI requires a diver to have a minimum of 60 dives to enroll in the instructor class, but a minimum of 100 dives to graduate. They don't need to be in a variety of conditions. Futhermore, I believe that the standards that the industry considers minimum are far too light; I believe that there should be more weight to them. Why does the industry want to certify 10 year olds? Why can a certification be bought? Why does the customer "always" have to be right? Also, the things being taught to instructors have little to do with skill and knowledge development; the topics weigh heavy on the marketing and liability aspects (and some agencies have recently changed their standards for instructor/DM development, IMHO not for the better). I have know idea what a fundamentals class consists of, but I do believe more needs to be taught to the beginning diver. What the industry is putting out there are divers with little knowledge and few solid skills. This is a disservice to other divers, the industry and the environment. A diver with enough knowledge to get hurt, but not enough knowledge to save themselves. I do believe that the standards have been lowered so as to get more people with c-cards at the expense of knowledge and safety. If a fundamentals class can teach the knowledge and theory to better the diver, then great, let's put it back into the class. I know that at one time the classes took much longer to teach because there was more knowledge to cover; what happened to those days? Is the bottom line really that important?? Yes, perhaps the instructor does make a difference; however, instructors get pressured by the industry, their agency, the customer, and even the dive shop to get divers in the water. There need to be some changes in the way the industry works.