Check dives, private DMs, and local/shop policies

[Lorenzoid]

xyrandomyx: Without a doubt, the divers who go to the Blue Hole arrive at the dive shop specifically wanting go to the Blue Hole. But I believe the dive ops are responsible for creating that demand. I suppose supply and demand is sort of circular, which is why I didn't understand your question. As far as what goes on in the dive ops' heads, I suspect it's not so much "the op knows they really shouldn't" go as it is the dive op being (over?-)confident that their DMs can herd and keep an eye on everybody safely enough. In the case of the Blue Hole, I do think the dive ops rely way too much on the DMs to try to keep divers of all abilities safe. I don't think this is analogous to what reputable ops in Cozumel do to help keep people safe (see Christi's post above).

 

[ggunn]

I have people all the time write for reservations requesting specific dive sites because they read about them in a guide book or on the internet - when the truth is, these are not even the best dives we have to offer - just like the Blue Hole - what a boring anticlimactic dive. I tell them all the same thing. I cannot guarantee you ANY specific dive site because dive sites are selected each day on the boat as a group with various considerations taken into account. Divers requests are of course taken into account, it is a democracy for the most part, but the DM and Captain have the final say for safety reasons - that is what they are paid to do - to take you on the most enjoyable and safe dives they can. Knowing that we have people that want to do some of the specific sites that are deemed "expert" or "highly advanced" helps us to plan for it however and assemble a group of divers not only that are qualified, but that WANT to do these sites. Many people who are qualified for these sites don't want to dive them because they have been there and done that and they don't want to waste NDL time on a dive like Devil's Throat for example. They would rather a nice long dive with more marine life and time in the water - not necessarily shallow, but a properly profiled dive where they can also use nitrox if appropriate.

Speaking from an operators point of view - we don't take people that are unqualified or that we have not verified personally with a few "regular" dives to sites like Devil's Throat, Barracuda, Maracaibo deep - PERIOD - not even with a private DM. If they need a private DM, then they sure don't need to be on these sites to begin with!

On my first trip to Cozumel with the ink still wet on my cert card, on my second or third day diving, the DM asked me where I wanted to go that day. I had heard the name somewhere and knew nothing about it, so I said "How about Maracaibo?". The DM busted out laughing and just said, "No way, gringo."

 

[MSDT476614]

Think of it this way - one can essentially get course level training at a bargain price! OK, no C-card, but why not learn how to dive where you want to dive from someone who really knows how? A motivated diver can learn a lot from a private DM, and of course the better trained in basic skills that diver is before he gets to the reef, the more he will learn about drift and reef diving from that DM and the better the dives will be. Given freedom from needing to babysit for inadequate basic skills, a private DM will freely teach you a LOT about diving in that new environment. Taking advantage of the availability of a private divemaster to learn in unfamilar condition does not automatically indicate that a diver is not taking responsibilty for themselves, but is often a way for that diver to increase their level of selfconfidence and ability. This can, perhaps, reduce the likeliness of incidents like this one.

Dear Qnape,

might this leave instructors will little to no inspiration to pass the knowledge onto DMs who will remove the need for instructors from an economic perspective? And now that this bit of a gem is out in the open here on the internet what incentive is there for a prospective diver to learn from an instructor?

Not saying that well trained DMs can't do a good job passing on great and perhaps even life-saving experience / knowledge.

 

[redacted]

Dear Qnape,

might this leave instructors will little to no inspiration to pass the knowledge onto DMs who will remove the need for instructors from an economic perspective? And now that this bit of a gem is out in the open here on the internet what incentive is there for a prospective diver to learn from an instructor?

Not saying that well trained DMs can't do a good job passing on great and perhaps even life-saving experience / knowledge.

So what are you saying?

 

[Christi]

Dear Qnape,

might this leave instructors will little to no inspiration to pass the knowledge onto DMs who will remove the need for instructors from an economic perspective? And now that this bit of a gem is out in the open here on the internet what incentive is there for a prospective diver to learn from an instructor?

Not saying that well trained DMs can't do a good job passing on great and perhaps even life-saving experience / knowledge.

Sorry, I too am confused by your post.

 

[vondo]

Belize's Blue Hole is precisely the site I had in mind when I asked that question (after reading countless posts/ threads about it here).


Do new divers end up diving the Blue Hole because:


a) the diver insists that they want to go, even though the op knows they really shouldn't; or
b) the diver doesn't really mind where they dive and the op reassures them that it's all good


? 'a' is what I meant by actual demand (they're really going to lose customers if they don't take them). 'b' is what I meant by 'perceived' demand (the op thinks they'll lose customers, in reality the diver would still be quite happy if they didn't dive that site).

In my case, somewhere between. I don't remember where I heard about it, probably once we got to the island. We asked about it, said we would like to go, inquired a bit if it was a difficult dive, and we were told not to worry, there would be two DMs, it's highly controlled, etc.

I don't know what would have happened if someone said "I don't think its a smart idea for you to go. You are OW certified with less than 20 dives and your buoyancy is not great. Try it next time you are here." I like to think I would have bailed, but I've learned a lot as a diver since then. I do know I was considering not diving or asking if I could hang out at the lip at 40' and I was told not to worry.

So plenty of blame to go around, I think.

Edit: When I say "not diving" I mean the BH. We were told the BH was nice, but the other two sites were great. And they were. I think that's one of the problems with the BH. If it was a cheap trip from Ambergris/Caulker and a dive by itself, it would be less of an attraction, I think.

 

[Qnape]

Dear Qnape,

might this leave instructors will little to no inspiration to pass the knowledge onto DMs who will remove the need for instructors from an economic perspective? And now that this bit of a gem is out in the open here on the internet what incentive is there for a prospective diver to learn from an instructor?

Not saying that well trained DMs can't do a good job passing on great and perhaps even life-saving experience / knowledge.

Well, in the present example, we are talking about learning about drift and current diving, not cave, cavern or dry suit. Tell me, how many drift diving specialty courses are completed in Cozumel each year? More than in other places I am sure because it is a "capital" of drift diving, but I'd be suprised if there is wide demand for the specialty (although I truly don't know so I could be in error). The cost for the specialty course would probably be about the same as the same number of dives with a private DM if you subtract the course materials and C-card processing (PADI's cut). Frankly, the result is the same if the divers taking the course or hiring a private DM successfully gain the skills and knowledge to dive in the area. Is the provision of a private DM really cutting into instructor's business? Maybe PADI's, a bit. We've all read about how some courses are more useful than others, and I am pretty sure that all the divers I know learned about boat diving, drift diving, and deep diving from other divers and DMs, not by getting the specialty C-card. Of course, many of the best DM's at Coz and elsewhere are actually instructors anyway.

That said, when I decided to go dive in the cenotes, I sought out a cavern instructor, and the best one I could find. I didn't want the easiest course, I wanted the most comprehensive one. I wanted to spend some time in the caverns, not just get a taste. After deciding I wanted to spend time in the cenotes, I then sought out the training. That was my original point for new divers or those new to an area / set of conditions. Whether it be from an instuctor or DM, seek guidance or instruction when diving in conditions other than those in which you were certified. By doing so, you are taking responsibility for yourself as a diver.

 

[xyrandomyx]

I have people all the time write for reservations requesting specific dive sites because they read about them in a guide book or on the internet - when the truth is, these are not even the best dives we have to offer - just like the Blue Hole - what a boring anticlimactic dive. I tell them all the same thing. I cannot guarantee you ANY specific dive site because dive sites are selected each day on the boat as a group with various considerations taken into account. Divers requests are of course taken into account, it is a democracy for the most part, but the DM and Captain have the final say for safety reasons - that is what they are paid to do - to take you on the most enjoyable and safe dives they can. Knowing that we have people that want to do some of the specific sites that are deemed "expert" or "highly advanced" helps us to plan for it however and assemble a group of divers not only that are qualified, but that WANT to do these sites. Many people who are qualified for these sites don't want to dive them because they have been there and done that and they don't want to waste NDL time on a dive like Devil's Throat for example. They would rather a nice long dive with more marine life and time in the water - not necessarily shallow, but a properly profiled dive where they can also use nitrox if appropriate.

Speaking from an operators point of view - we don't take people that are unqualified or that we have not verified personally with a few "regular" dives to sites like Devil's Throat, Barracuda, Maracaibo deep - PERIOD - not even with a private DM. If they need a private DM, then they sure don't need to be on these sites to begin with!

I am not afraid of losing business for not taking them to a site they beg to go to or one that we perceive they want to go to. Of course we handle it professionally and delicately - then they realize that their safety is most important, unless they are completely unreasonable and arrogant.

Thanks, that does give me some more insight. Clearly, then, there are divers who are set on diving specific 'advanced' sites. And, presumably, at least some of those might take their business elsewhere if an op refused to take them to one of those sites due to lack of skills/ experience. It's great that you wouldn't, but I'm sure there are other ops (whether in Cozumel or elsewhere in the world) that would.

AS for the missing diver, the dive site she was diving was not an advanced dive per se. It is a standard site that is typically ok for all levels depending on how the DM profiled the dive that day. Palancar is a reef that can be dove as a wall dive with or without swim throughs or as a shallower dive by staying at the top of the reef or on the east side of the structures (west side is the wall). It can be a deep multi-level dive or a shallow dive with depths from 25 - 30 feet at the top of the reef literally to the Abyss on the wall side - there are also many shelves at various depths. I feel confident in saying that unless this was an advanced group of divers (which I doubt based on the statement from the Op's employee that she had done a refresher and was encouraged to hire a private DM) this dive was probably planned as a standard Palancar dive with a dive plan of 60 - 80 ft max with the standard tour of the reef.

AS far as one of your previous posts (or maybe it was someone else) abou the need for a private DM because the site was beyond their capabilities - no - if the dive is beyond their capabilities, we don't just put a private DM with them and send them to a site that we have already decided they are not qualified for. Likewise, if someone needs a private DM because their skills are subpar, they are nervous - etc. - they need the assistance on a benign shallow dive as well - they can actually do just as much harm in 30 feet of water as they can in 80 feet of water.

Those were my posts. But some others replied and cleared up my misconceptions about the reasons for hiring a private DM. I see now that while it could be done for the 'wrong' reasons (to 'babysit' a new diver at a wholly inappropriate site), there are some good/ reasonable cases for hiring a private DM.

 

[bpotkin]

I like to compare Scuba Diving to flying a plane. If you go to a new flight center, the chief pilot will go over your
log book and have you answer some questions. At that point no matter who you are and what your experience level
is, you have to go on a check ride to get signed off. Simple as that!

 

[drrich2]

A diver who screws up is most likely to kill himself rather than anyone else.

I pilot who screws up is liable to run into another plane, crash into a building, etc..., and may have passengers.

I see your analogy, but there is a sharp difference.

Richard.