Choosing an algorithm

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SSpiffy

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Location
Puget Sound
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I just don't log dives
I just bought an Oceanic VT-4.0 computer, my current puck will now be my BU. My usual dive buddy uses an Atomic Cobalt, which uses "Recreational RGBM (Reduced Gradient Bubble Model) created exclusively for Atomic Aquatics". Of the two Oceanic decompression algorithms, "PELAGIC DSAT* (SPENCER/POWELL DATA BASIS) OR PELAGIC Z+ (BUHLMAN ZHL-16C DATA BASIS)"; which would come closer to what the Atomic uses so we will be diving essentially the same decompression profiles?
 
I thought this would be easy but I did not find 1st dive NDLs in the Atomic user manual. The Oceanic NDLs are in the back of the user manual for both algorithims. You'll have to use the dive simulation on the Atomic to get an idea of the NDLs, I have a strong suspicion that that they will be less than DSAT, maybe similar to PZ+. This will give you a good place to start, I don't have a very good idea how the two chosen algotithms will handle repetitive dives, this will have to be determined empiically. Your results would be of interest to the board, you should post them. Oceanic states that betwen the 2 algorithms and conservative factors, they should be able to match nearly any other computer. We'll see.

Good diving, Craig
 
How about the 2 of you put the pucks in gauge mode, by a vplanner or simmilar software and cut tables awhile? After that excersise you may conclude that pucks that do not generate the same run times is no big deal. Or sell the pucks you have, and the 2 of you buy the same one.
Eric
 
I agree with the approach of taking the computers on dives (on different weekends) to see how they really stack up.

From a theoretical point of view, I once read Mark Powell's book, so am in no way qualified to answer, but its Monday and I don't feel like working . . .


The answer to your question probably depends on the type of diving you are doing.

From loose recollection, the DSAT and Buhlman algorithms are similar in how they operate, while the RGBM uses a different theoretical starting point.

In non-decompression diving, I expect you will find that the Oceanic (either algorithm) gives slightly longer NDL. If you start doing saw tooth profiles or reverse profiles, this will become more pronounced.

If you exceed the NDL and are in deco, this is where you will really notice the difference. Both Oceanic algorithms, will seek to get you as shallow as possible (maybe 10 feet) and give you a deco stop at this level. The Atomic will give you a deep stop at about 45% of your max depth and may or may not have further stops on the way towards the surface.

From personal experience (I run my Oceanic in DSAT) the Oceanic is quite aggressive in terms of profiles, so I tend to stay away from its NDL limits.
 
I just bought an Oceanic VT-4.0 computer, my current puck will now be my BU. My usual dive buddy uses an Atomic Cobalt, which uses "Recreational RGBM (Reduced Gradient Bubble Model) created exclusively for Atomic Aquatics". Of the two Oceanic decompression algorithms, "PELAGIC DSAT* (SPENCER/POWELL DATA BASIS) OR PELAGIC Z+ (BUHLMAN ZHL-16C DATA BASIS)"; which would come closer to what the Atomic uses so we will be diving essentially the same decompression profiles?

That's not going to be an easy question to answer. As a general rule you would expect the RGBM model to start giving short stops at a deeper depth than the Buhlmann decompression model. It seems to me that testing of the Spencer/Powell algorithm was done with a much higher ascent rate than would typically be recommended now but how that is implemented on any particular computer is anyone's guess. Dr. Powell is a member here on Scubaboard so you can ask him these kinds of questions directly, if you want. Also, some of what was put in the market under the name "RGBM" was really 'bubble wrapped Haldane" so the underlying mechanics and calculated no deco times using various ascent strategies will all fit in a narrow bandwidth. I *suspect* although I cannot be sure, that the Atomic computer is one of these.

Either way both the RGBM and Buhlmann algorithms will give you safe ascent profiles. Since the RGBM computer will probably protest if you "skip" a deep stop then I would suggest to follow that one if you insert a deep stop (or series of deep stops) into an ascent using a Haldane based model then your computer will accept that just fine. In fact, with my computer (a Suunto) I never bother to strictly follow it's ascent profile, or even really check what it said. Any ceiling it gives is useless information to me. It's invariably shallower than where I want to start making stops so I just form the ascent to my own liking and when I get to the ceiling it indicated on the bottom then it's always perfectly happy. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant but it would seem odd to me to engage in technical diving if one needed to ride the computer to get a clean ascent profile anyway.....

From personal experience what I always did when diving with a buddy who used an RGBM computer (I was using the Suunto) was to follow the deeper ascent profile and you'll find that you buddy will want to start making stops deeper than you might and his computer will probably clear shallow stops (especially the last one) earlier. So you use his deep stops and your shallow stops, especially the 4,5m (or 3 metre) stops. There's some evidence to suggest that RGBM breaks down on heavy technical dives and that one should extend shallow stops anyway, so it won't hurt your buddy to wait until your computer clears the last stop so you can surface together. In any event, any stop at 5m or shallower can be extended for as long as you like, regardless of algorithm.

In a recreational setting, it's all 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other. The very definition of a no-deco dive means that you can ascend (at the prescribed ascent rate) all the way to surface without getting DCS. The rest of whatever you do is just a buffer, whether it be making a deep stop or 2 or extending the 5m stop to whatever length you like. Some agencies are now teaching to ascend to 1/2 of maximum depth and put in a 1 minute stop as a matter of course for recreational dives. In my opinion, as long as you put in the necessary stops to not exceed 10m/min ascent rate until reaching your 5m stop and you were at no point over your NDL, then on a no-deco dive the 1min stop at 1/2 maximum depth can't hurt but probably has more to do with being aware of your ascent profile than with anything in particular to do with safety.

R..
 
I just bought an Oceanic VT-4.0 computer, my current puck will now be my BU. My usual dive buddy uses an Atomic Cobalt, which uses "Recreational RGBM (Reduced Gradient Bubble Model) created exclusively for Atomic Aquatics". Of the two Oceanic decompression algorithms, "PELAGIC DSAT* (SPENCER/POWELL DATA BASIS) OR PELAGIC Z+ (BUHLMAN ZHL-16C DATA BASIS)"; which would come closer to what the Atomic uses so we will be diving essentially the same decompression profiles?


I do not know if Atomic Aquatics version of RGBM is diffenent than Suunto's but if it is you will find that RGBM computers are out of family from Buhlmann and DSAT. So none of the other computers mentioned will be a good match.

At least for Suunto’s implementation of the RGBM you will find that RGBM is significantly more conservative for repetitive dives. Suunto RGBM has penalties for short surface intervals, rapid ascents, reverse profiles and going past NDL. You really have to have tolerant dive buddies, or be willing go solo, if you are using a RGBM computer. Differences of 20 or more minutes in remaining NDL time are not uncommon. Of course much shorter bottom times are safe if nonsensical from the standpoint of dissolved gas models which have a good safety record. Perhaps the best recommendation is to put the RGBM computer into gauge mode and dive tables or ratio deco. Also contrary to other comments Suunto RGBM does not do deep stops, at least not most of the time. It will want to slow your ascent rate to 30 feet/minute.
 
I compared the NDLs on his Atomic Cobalt with conservatism cranked to 11 to the four possible models on the Oceanic VT-4.0. The model that most closely matched his was the PZ+ without conservatism turned on. As someone in the thread in the Atomic forum said, they were most divergent at shallow depths.

Here's an Excel spreadsheet with the data on it.
 

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  • Decompression.xls
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In fact, with my computer (a Suunto) I never bother to strictly follow it's ascent profile, or even really check what it said. Any ceiling it gives is useless information to me. It's invariably shallower than where I want to start making stops so I just form the ascent to my own liking and when I get to the ceiling it indicated on the bottom then it's always perfectly happy. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant but it would seem odd to me to engage in technical diving if one needed to ride the computer to get a clean ascent profile anyway.....
R..

Glad to hear you say that about the Suunto as I have observed, and have to do, the same thing with my Suunto computer. I wonder if it is truly using a RGBM since it does not force deeper stops. I thought a deep stop was an attribute of the RGBM but then maybe that is just me not being properly educated.
 
Glad to hear you say that about the Suunto as I have observed, and have to do, the same thing with my Suunto computer. I wonder if it is truly using a RGBM since it does not force deeper stops. I thought a deep stop was an attribute o..f the RGBM but then maybe that is just me not being properly educated.

It's hard to say what Suunto is using, since what they're calling RGBM is proprietary. The Internet Consensus seems to be that it's not a true RGBM implementation. The only full RGBM I know of to be currently available is third party software for the Liquivision Xeo.
 
Dr. Bruce Winkie admitted on the latest Suunto video publicizing their new FUSION algorithm, that the Suunto RGBM is a modified Haldane.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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