Clogged orifice vs stuck solenoid

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Underwater Tourist

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I don't have a ccr yet, but I think eventually (in 5 years maybe) I will get one.
So right now I am reading about them for general education purposes.

Until today, I was sure that if I go the ccr route, it will be some manual machine as opposed to an electronic one. But now I am doubting myself a little because I read numerous mentions of a clogged orifice, meanwhile I didnt see a single case of a stuck (open or closed) solenoid. Which brings some questions:

1) Is a clogged orifice a higher frequency failure when compared to a stuck solenoid?
2) Is a clogged orifice something that every mccr user is expected to go through at some point or another (say over the course of 10-15 years)?
3) If the ccr is used for cave diving with avg depths of 20-30m, what would you rather have: a clogged orifice or a stuck solenoid (i.e which one is less dangerous)?
4) Anything else I should have asked but didn't?
 
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1) Is a clogged orifice a higher frequency failure when compared to a stuck solenoid?

I wouldnt say either are high frequency but I've had a clogged orifice once on my mCCR. I've known 3 people that have had stuck open solenoid valves. (2 stuck wide open on a dive and one was partial but slowly letting more O2 into the rebreather and spiking the ppO2). Both happen more often in salt water for sure.

In my case it was not a complete clog as oxygen was still being delivered I was just having to manually add oxygen more frequently than usual. I noticed it over 2 dives and when I measured it with a flow meter my typical flow rate was almost cut in half.

Smaller orifices are more prune to clogging. I believe most mCCR also have a micron filter to help prevent clogs.

I dont own one but one of the supposed benefits of a needle valve is that you can, in theory, open the orifice large enough to dislodge a clog that might occur. You can't do this on a fixed orifice like on the rEvo or KISS.

2) Is a clogged orifice something that every mccr user is expected to go through at some point or another (say over the course of 10-15 years)?

I think there are a lot of variables such as how many hours on your unit, salt water intrusion and your cleaning procedures. I know a lot of mCCR divers that have never had a clogged orifice. Part of your training (and in some cases build procedures) should be to check oxygen flow against a flow meter and verify the correct flow rate. It is something you train for and should notice.

3) If the ccr is used for cave diving with avg depths of 20-30m, what would you rather have: a clogged orifice or a stuck solenoid (i.e which one is less dangerous)?

A stuck open solenoid in my opinion is vastly more dangerous. It can introduce a very large spike of oxygen quickly and send your ppO2 sky rocketing. It is very much a situation where you need to react quickly and shut down your O2 valve. This is effectively an internal O2 "boom" which is something also covered in your training. At this point your rebreather is effectively not usable as it was designed, you would need to feather your O2 valve, isolate the solenoid, or even bailout depending on your training and experience.

On mCCR a partially clogged orifice just means you need to manually add O2 more often and is merely an inconvenience. It's still a mCCR and still functions as such. Even completely clogged it will still function as a mCCR and the unit could be "flown" manually albeit it would be annoying as you have to add O2 much more often. It doesnt mean it's not dangerous. One of the golden rules of rebreather diving (mCCR or eCCR) is to always know your ppO2. There are people that have died from O2 shutoffs on mCCR (effectively the same thing as a fully clogged orifice) when they did not monitor their ppO2 and incorrectly assumed their rebreather was still delivering oxygen when it was not.

4) Anything else I should have asked but didn't?

I dont think neither are inherently safer. Both are just failure modes to be made aware of. Whether you choose an eCCR or mCCR both of these scenarios are something you should train for and know how to check/test. Both are dangerous if proper measures are not taken.

A fully stuck open solenoid can lead to hyperoxia and sudden change in buoyancy if not caught quick enough.
A fully stuck closed solenoid (their designed failure mode) can lead to hypoxia if not caught quick enough
A fully clogged orifice on an mCCR can lead to hypoxia if not caught quick enough

Both scenarios can result in death. Hence the golden rule here: Always know your ppO2.
 
I don't think you are asking the right question in comparing the risk of a clogged orifice vs stuck solenoid.

It is really more like clogged orifice vs stuck solenoid / dead battery / broken computer / faulty wire harness, etc. There are just a lot more failure modes on an eCCR. If you spend 30 minutes per year servicing your MAV and cleaning the orifice you might never encounter this issue.

Regardless, you should be considering the types and style of diving you want to enable with a CCR. That may be a better guide as to what sort of system you invest in.
 
Both are possibilities and as stated previously, more likely in salt water. I've had both a clogged orifice (rEvo mCCR) and solenoid stuck closed (Titan eCCR). Of the two, I think the clogged orifice was the lesser evil as you are more attuned to constantly checking PPO2 on a mCCR vs eCCR.
 
@macado thank you! Your reply was super
helpful. My gut was also telling me that a stuck open solenoid is potentially more dangerous.

I don't think you are asking the right question in comparing the risk of a clogged orifice vs stuck solenoid.

It is really more like clogged orifice vs stuck solenoid / dead battery / broken computer / faulty wire harness, etc. There are just a lot more failure modes on an eCCR.
yes I am aware that eccrs have more failure points, but I was more interested to know if there is a materially higher chance of an orifice vs solenoid failure as I haven’t seen that point discussed in numerous other eccr vs mccr threads
 
I'll add a little bit more to this...
I did the same ton of research before getting my rebreather. After getting it, and getting good classes on using it, these horrible sounding things are not as big of a deal in real life as they sound while reading about them. This is where a good rebreather instructor is important. At this level we are no longer teaching to the masses. The rebreather class isn't about how fast you can get a card and dive. I'll take a tangent for a second and say that I feel a lot of shops that are adding rebreathers and new instructors still have the mentality of it is just another minimum level to pump out another cert card like open water approach. Tangent over. A good instructor will teach you how to handle these issues so they are only a minor problem.

Clogged orifice is a lesser of a problem as far as I am concerned. In fact my rEvo comes with an orifice block off plug to convert the hybrid system into a full electronic system (needed if going really deep). There are multiple ways to add oxygen to the loop. Generally only one way to stop excess from getting in.
 
A stuck open solenoid in my opinion is vastly more dangerous. It can introduce a very large spike of oxygen quickly and send your ppO2 sky rocketing. It is very much a situation where you need to react quickly and shut down your O2 valve.
It seems to me that most ccr accidents involved a lack of o2 rather than too much.
I was taught to bail out straight away when the o2 in the loop is over 1.6. Than flush and see if I can go back on the loop. Would you stay on the loop and try to fix it while your cells show more than 1.6? Unless it's just a 2 second spike or so.
 
Not to thread hijack too much but does anyone know the diameter and length of the fixed orifice?

Ball park is close enough. I’m just curious of approximate size to get volume flow rate about right. What are we talking .010”-.020” range?
 
Not to thread hijack too much but does anyone know the diameter and length of the fixed orifice?

Ball park is close enough. I’m just curious of approximate size to get volume flow rate about right. What are we talking .010”-.020” range?
The Kiss orifice is .0035mm according yo the manual.
 

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