CMF Manual or Hybrid Rebreather Design

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jwllorens

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I am not a rebreather diver. I don't own one and have never piloted one. However, I am fascinated by the mechanics of different rebreathers. Of particular interest to me are hCCRs like the rEvo when configured as such.

I have a question regarding the constant mass flow of oxygen into the loop.

Supplying the orifice that regulates the volumetric flow of oxygen into the loop with a standard scuba first stage introduces some conflicts in hCCRs. The first stage must be altered to provide a fixed IP during the dive to ensure constant mass flow across the orifice. This is fine and dandy but when you hook your manual addition valve or a solenoid up to the same first stage, now there is a hard MOD on the unit because once the ambient pressure matches the IP of the regulator, no O2 can be added to the loop by any means.

So, why don't rebreather manufacturers producing manual and hybrid CCRs include a simple, purpose built, regulator and orifice in the rebreather itself, to which a high pressure line from the depth-compensating first stage on the tank is connected? Then, manual addition valves and solenoids would operate off of the depth compensating IP of the first stage on the tank and only the constant mass flow into the loop would have a MOD, not the entire unit.

Of course, this adds more failure points, but with a regulated orifice, solenoid, and a manual addition valve, you have plenty of redundancy and the mode of failure for each oxygen addition mechanism is quite different and concurrent failures would be unlikely. Failure points on a rebreather are so numerous anyways, one or two more would not statistically make much of a difference on the safety of the unit at all. This would also eliminate degradation in CMF performance and eliminate unpredictability in P02 adjustments with depths just shy of the MOD, because a purpose built regulator with a higher IP and smaller orifice could be used.

Since it seems that people do not manufacture rebreathers like this, there must be a reason. Is this a bad idea? If so, why?
 
The constant mass orifice works by establishing sonic flow in the restricted area.
Establishing sonic flow will constrain the mass of gas in a time unit passing the orifice: a shock wave forms and stays there.
To achieve sonic flow the difference in pressure between the low pressure and the high pressure side (if I remember correctly my fluidodynamics) has to be greater than 2x.
So if your intermediate pressure is 10 bar you can dive up to 40 meters 5 bar (after that the flow will not be metered) also if your interstage pressure is too high the solenoid will lock.
I dive an Inspiration and one of the checks I do is the interstage pressure at 7.5 bar on the oxy side.

Maybe I am oversimplifying but these are things to ponder. Also you might want to avoid adding toomany things that can break.
Why an ECCR, which can be run manually, would need a constant mass flow orifice? What happens if you do not breath the loop and fail to close the oxygen? And if you remember to close it, then you go back to the loop and forget to open it again?
We need to consider not only the technical aspect but also the procedural complexity imposed on the diver.

Just my 2c from a pure ECCR, mixed gas diver without experience i hCCR ...
 
I think I have a pretty good handle on how constant mass flow using an orifice works, which is why I'm posing the question, but if I am wrong about any of this please correct me. I have taken several classes related to fluid flow, I started off studying Chemical Engineering and switched to Biosystems Engineering, both of which require quite a few classes regarding fluids, so I am basing my understanding off of this.

From what I understand, the volumetric flow rate through the orifice is limited by a Mach number of 1, because the orifice has a fixed cross sectional area and the flow velocity cannot be greater than the speed of sound of the gas in relation to the orifice itself. In the case of O2, this velocity (and therefore volumetric flow rate) limit is reached approximately when the pressure at the inlet of the orifice is equal to or greater than twice the pressure at the outlet. To ensure constant mass flow, all we have to do is "fix" the pressure at the inlet to the orifice to some value that is at least twice the pressure of the outlet, and now we have a constant velocity (and therefore constant volumetric flow rate) and a constant pressure at the inlet, so we can determine the mass flow rate entering the orifice (which obviously equals the mass flow rate at the exit of the orifice, therefore the mass flow rate entering the loop).

The issue with the orifice is that the pressure at the inlet must be constant to ensure constant mass flow. this translates to fixing the IP (using a non depth compensating or "blanked" first stage regulator). This has the consequence that as depth increases, the pressure at the orifice outlet increases while the pressure at the inlet remains constant. At some point the inlet pressure to the orifice will no longer be greater than or twice the pressure at the outlet, and the mass flow is no longer constant because the volumetric flow rate becomes variable, or worse, no flow occurs if P1 = P2.



Back to the topic of rebreathers...

From my understanding there are primarily two types of fully closed-circuit rebreathers, which seems to be heavily based on two idealogies primarily held among rebreather operators. Again, I do not claim to be an expert on anything I am talking about here, every sentence here essentially has a question mark behind it.

Manual rebreathers and those who prefer them keep an eye on the PO2 in their loop and manually add O2 (or flush) the loop to make adjustments. I suppose this is attractive to manual rebreather operators as you become "one with the machine" much like operating a vehicle with a manual transmission. Requiring constant user interaction to operate a vehicle (or rebreather) keeps the operator "in tune" and aware of the function of the machine itself, which accomplishes two things. First, it establishes a strong sense of "trust" for the machine as small variances in performance are readily noticed by the operator, and second, the machine remains mechanically simpler and therefore its function is easily understood during operation and problems can therefore be understood during operation.

Electronic rebreathers, on the other hand, operate much more like an automatic transmission. Users should keep an eye on their PO2 to ensure that the machine is functioning, but this is not enforced through operation of the machine itself. The machine will adjust the partial pressures of the gasses in the loop using a combination of sensors, microprocessors, and automated controls. Essentially, the microprocessor not only reports the PO2 readings from the sensors to the operator, but also uses these readings to operate solenoids. This is very convenient and allows for more precise control over the PO2 in the loop than a manual rebreather. However, it bypasses the operator's decision making process, the machine makes the decision and the user is supposed to double check to see if the machine made the right decision.

I think of it as if there is a professional relationship between the operator and the rebreather. The operator is the boss and the rebreather is the employee. The question then becomes "how much do you trust your employee to make responsible decisions and do their job?" With a manual rebreather, the "boss" doesn't trust the employee very much, so the "boss" opts to do the job him/herself. "If you want something done right, do it yourself." if you will. This works, and statistics appear to indicate that it is a bit safer, but as with any professional relationship the "boss" can only do so much and sometimes he or she needs to hand off responsibility to the "employee" so that the "boss" can divert attention to other things. With an electronic rebreather, the "boss" trusts the employee to do their job, so the boss simply "supervises" the "employee" but lets the "employee" work autonomously. I believe this can be risky, because the longer the "employee" does its job correctly, the less likely the "boss" is to supervise the "employee" with a great amount of scrutiny, and lets face it, eventually every "employee" will make a mistake. mCCRs ask the operator "do you trust your oxygen cells?" while eCCRs go ahead and assume you do trust your cells, and it is up to the user to "double check" and decide if they trust the cells.

A hybrid CCR appears to be the best of both worlds and doesn't fit this analogy as well as the other types. A hybrid CCR is designed to be operated manually, which is arguably safer (note that "arguably" doesn't mean that it actually is), but also has the option to operate autonomously when needed. Some liken this to having a "parachute."

I am posing this question about rebreather design because the "parachute" analogy seems to indicate that the autonomous operation of the hCCR is a backup safety measure. Since autonomous operation of the CCR is not the primary mode of operation, and arguably not the safest mode of operation for the machine, it seems that this functionality should be likened more to "cruise control" rather than a "parachute." Instead of relying on it to save you when you forget to add O2 to the loop, why not delegate this function to being a convenience feature instead and utilize other methods more common among manual rebreathers as safety precautions. This makes sense to me because hybrid CCRs are supposed to be operated manually "most of the time," so why not include systems that are common among manual rebreathers to assist in manual operation of the eCCR or hCCR that is being operated manually? And indeed, this is true of the rEvo hybrid rebreather which has a constant mass flow orifice in addition to the computer controlled solenoid.





So, back to the question. A constant mass flow orifice, which is common among manual rebreathers (all of them it appears, aside from the UTD MX rebreather), appears to "lengthen" the time between required manual injections of O2 into the loop, or give the user a bit more time to "remember" if they "forget" to inject O2 into the loop. This is accomplished by providing constant mass flow into the loop equal to the minimum expected metabolic rate of the diver. However, these devices often impose a hard depth limitation on the rebreather itself, as they require a non-depth-compensating first stage to achieve constant mass flow and if the manual addition valve (and/or the solenoid) is plumbed off of the same non-depth-compensating first stage then there are NO means of addition oxygen to the loop below this "maximum operating depth."

So my question is: Why do hybrid (or manual) CCRs with a constant mass flow not utilize some sort of secondary non-depth-compensating regulator with a higher IP than normal SCUBA regulators, plumbed off of the high pressure line from the O2 tank, so that the primary first stage that the manual addition valve (and/or solenoid) is plumbed off of may be a depth compensating regulator?

EDIT: on a side note, this question can be broadened. Why don't dive gear manufacturers "do more" with high pressure lines? It seems as if there are many applications for plumbing things off of the high pressure side of a regulator, yet rebreathers and other specialty dive gear never seems to touch the high pressure side of a regulator except to monitor gas pressure in the tank. UTD, for example, opts to use the intermediate pressure lines in their "sidemount manifold" which appears to me to not actually solve the percieved "problem" of having isolated gas supplies when using sidemount configuration. A manifold that instead runs off of the high pressure lines, connected by the same hosing used for "fill whips" at filling stations, seems as if it would be mechanically simpler and offer better functionality and design flexibility.
 
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so you can't plumb off of the HP line out of a normal first stage because it doesn't flow enough gas to do anything useful. If you've taken one apart you've seen how small the orifice is. You could probably use it for a CMF orifice, but that's about it. Problem there is you have to put what is essentially another first stage inside of the unit which means you have to start milling out of metal because delrin certainly won't tolerate it. You can't take it from a LP port because no regulator has stable enough pressure regulator to handle that kind of pressure swing stable enough to keep the CMF from fluctuating. That also being said the depth limitations of a CMF are only experienced by a very small handful of CCR divers that venture to the 100m+ realm and for that it isn't uncommon in backmount units to have both backmount bottles full of O2, one that is fixed for the CMF, which gets shut down when they reach depth, and then the other is a normal compensating unit for manual add.

Regarding the UTD setup, the problem is how big and heavy first stages are and how to isolate. I.e. in what I think you're talking about you would have a custom first stage with a HP port milled out large enough to provide sufficient flow to what would need to be another first stage to regulate gas back down to some sort of intermediate pressure. First stages are big and heavy and really can't be made any smaller than they are now so you would have a big problem trying to find a place to put it, plus redundancy problems since first stages are more prone to fail. Adds incredible amounts of unnecessary complexity to a system. You can't tap off of the low pressure ports and tie them together because the second stages will basically only pull from the first stage that is "easier" to pull from which is why they can only have one side open at a time.

Many divers get around the CMF depth limitation with custom made springs for their first stages to get stupid high IP's and then use itty bitty orifices to keep things functioning at depth. Some run dual O2 bottles, one compensating/normal for MAV, one plugged for CMF. Others just choose to use a needle valve so you don't have to worry about it, though there are other concerns with needle valves.

I'm not sure where you guys got the 2x pressure, but I know people regularly take stock Kiss valves to 80m with no problems. The flow may not be quite as stable at depth, but it will still flow and your MAV will still work. The Apeks DS4 is the "normal" regulator people use and are limited to 10 bar I think, but if you use the Poseidon first stages with the springs for the Cyklons you can easily get to 12bar
 
Let me throw out my new personal preference for you to ponder over also.

An ECCR with a adjustable needle valve on the O2 addition. Run the electronics at a low setpoint of .4 as a parachute but run the rebreather manually. The needle valve will act as an adjustable orifice but not cause any depth limitations from having a fixed IP.
 
Second the needle valve. Doesn't require fixed IP, adjustable during the dive. It's something else to maintain, but so is a solenoid.
 
I'm not sure where you guys got the 2x pressure, but I know people regularly take stock Kiss valves to 80m with no problems. The flow may not be quite as stable at depth, but it will still flow and your MAV will still work. The Apeks DS4 is the "normal" regulator people use and are limited to 10 bar I think, but if you use the Poseidon first stages with the springs for the Cyklons you can easily get to 12bar

Sorry you are right for Oxygen is not 2x but 1.893 see table 1.
Choked flow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you can take an orifice to wathever pressure ratio you wish but if chocked flow is not achieved you loose the Constant Mass Flow which depends upon upstream density and orifice speed. In order for the latter to be constant you have to achieve chocked flow.

Cheers

Add.
For those diving past 40 meters I believe a needle valve is a better idea dan a CMF orifice that stops being a CMF and becomes only an orifice allowing gas through in un-metered fashion when the pressure ratio falls below the minimum 1.893 to 1. Also the pressure before the orifice HAS to be constant to insure the density of the gas is constant. This is again necessary to achieve CMF.

Then we have the fact that solenoids have a very limited range of (or should I say a precise) workable pressure differential. Therefore using the same first stage for a solenoid and a CMF when diving deep becomes troublesome, as others have pointed out above.

Many times when I am not task loaded, I do set my setpoint to low (.7) and run manually to 1.3. I need to make many more adds compared to an hCCR with a needle valve but I do that to keep up my skill in case my solenoids fails.

In my view the most critical issue is not solenoid failure which apparently scares people, but inability to determine ppO2 in the loop without warning that the displayed values are wrong. This failure mode will affect both eCCR and hCCR. Both the automatic addition and the human operated manual addition will rely on faulty data.

Cheers
 
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