Comparison of the buying online vs local LDS argument

[runsongas]

time is a circle

 

[fullytek]

Once again, I am not a scuba dealer but I can buy certain Echo chainsaws cheaper brand new on Ebay than from my distributor. Echo has made it clear that they will not be under warrantee if I sell them because the buyer will be the second owner. This was the factor that made me decide I had to get out of that business.

I'm sad to hear that your relationship with echo is coming to an end.
That is a brand that has a reputation as a premium quality product and in my experience it out performs and out lasts stihl.
ECHO decided probably 15 years ago to sell in the big box stores and with that the mom and pops who built the reputation for that brand are suddely second class. I suspect that if I bought a trimmer from your shop it would come fueled tested and tuned redy to work possibly even with a brief tutorial on how to run it.
If I buy from the big orange ****** box store I'll have to get it from the top rack my self well some useless 24 year old collage graduate in an apron surfs tinder on hrs smart phone

Dropping echo might be a wise business decision as the consumer power equipment market shifts to offshore cordless gutless foreign plastic ****. echo has failed to adapt to the market well alienating the folks who actually need a comercial grade machine.
Echo better reinvente its self fast well it has the resources to do so.
Sadly I predict echo will live on in name only attached to some Alibaba quality 1/2 shaft big box store equipment.

 

[Roger Hobden]

I have been watching this thread for a couple of days, trying to decide if/when I might have something to contribute. And wow! there is a lot to say on the topic. Full disclosure - I own a small LDS, close to a one man show.

Brands carried: There are a lot of variables here. There are some brands that limit the number of doors they will open in a given area, while some other brands will open anyone. And often the decision is up to the regional sales rep and not a centralized authority - so even that can be inconsistent across the country. Yes, there have been brands I asked for, but was turned down due to proximity. (main factor - don't piss off an established account by opening another account right next to them) Then there are buying levels. If I was able to put all my eggs in one basket, buy all categories of goods (Regs, BCDs, computers, wetsuits, masks, fins, etc.) from only one vendor and never lose a sale, I would have a much better buying level and better margins versus splitting my inventory across multiple brands. So even on brands that I can open an account, inventory investment is a balancing act between choice, selection, and best cost.

LDS On Line: There are a lot of variables there, too. Aside from MAP pricing, most vendors have an extensive and varying set of rules regarding what and how a dealer can sell on line without violating their dealer agreement. Without going into detail, in can be onerous and complex - requiring resources and back end commitment easily beyond the reach of a small business. Worse yet is biting off more than you can chew, and creating the opportunity for negative customer experiences. Don't do it if you don't think you can do it right. I don't have industry and market share numbers, but this is a relatively small industry - that pie is only so big. Just how many successful, similar scale (and therefore similar pricing) large online operations can there be before the market is saturated? If all the sales were done by a (relatively) few online LDS, I suspect the majority of local shops would disappear. Which means goodbye to the primary source of training, service, airfills, etc. that enable your local diving.

LDS buying online from cheaper than vendor sites: That is a nonstarter. I would not be able to offer the manufacturer warranty on anything bought that way. And although it might not be likely, it would increase the possibility of my acquiring grey market and questionable product.

Product Selection: Again, the smaller the scale of the business, the less able to provide depth of a product line. Just think about what it takes to stock a single wetsuit in 3 thicknesses, 2 genders, and lord knows many sizes. And then add colors, and maybe another brand or two?!? Now, how many BCD models in how many sizes and how many brands? It adds up to a big number REALLY fast.

So yes, I am between a rock and a hard place, trying to sell equipment for a fair price, while knowing that I can't possibly meet and/or beat every online price. There can be some crazy stuff out there. I try to provide a reasonable choice, bring in items that cover as many "customer solutions" as I can and cover the core needs and wants, while being responsive to ordering other items as needed. And help the customer make the best choice that best meets their needs.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

I have returned to diving recently after having stopped for twenty years, and am in the process of buying all my diving equipment. I decided that all the "big ticket" purchases (cold-water balanced sealed regulator, BP/W, drysuit, shearwater perdix) would be done at one of the local dive stores in my area, even if what I buy is not necessarily "The Absolute Number One On The Market", but is at least good enough for my current diving needs. Secondary items like spools, SMB, diving lights, oxygen analyzer, cutting tools, etc. I don't mind buying either local or online, depending if the specific item I am looking for is locally present or not.

 

[BRT]

I'm sad to hear that your relationship with echo is coming to an end.
That is a brand that has a reputation as a premium quality product and in my experience it out performs and out lasts stihl.
ECHO decided probably 15 years ago to sell in the big box stores and with that the mom and pops who built the reputation for that brand are suddely second class. I suspect that if I bought a trimmer from your shop it would come fueled tested and tuned redy to work possibly even with a brief tutorial on how to run it.
If I buy from the big orange ****** box store I'll have to get it from the top rack my self well some useless 24 year old collage graduate in an apron surfs tinder on hrs smart phone

Dropping echo might be a wise business decision as the consumer power equipment market shifts to offshore cordless gutless foreign plastic ****. echo has failed to adapt to the market well alienating the folks who actually need a comercial grade machine.
Echo better reinvente its self fast well it has the resources to do so.
Sadly I predict echo will live on in name only attached to some Alibaba quality 1/2 shaft big box store equipment.

Very hard decision for me. Great products. You are right, we sell them with a tank of fuel and show you how to start them. On a small chainsaw after we pay to get them in we make about $15 minus the cost of assembly and the gas and oil to sell it. I have carried them for the reason people say dive shops should sell some things at cost. It is good customer service. But it doesn't pay. I can't sell enough to meet the minimums for better pricing. I sell at full list to make that $15. Why would I bother, and now I am seeing more and more Home Depot units coming in for repairs and my distributor doesn't want to help with those. I'm gone. As the dive shops should be with manufacturers that will not allow them a profit. I just saw new in box CS-400s on Ebay for $245 delivered. My cost is $251 plus freight. If I buy them to sell I can't pass the warrantee to my buyer. If they buy direct they probably get the warrantee, if they can find a servicing dealer who will talk to them.

 

[KevinNM]

I agree that it would be smart for every shop to also sell online. However, the costs of doing so are not nearly as cheap as some people seem to think. Someone upstream talked about paying a high school kid $100 to setup an online store for a shop. That is not even REMOTELY a reflection of the real cost of doing so.

Plus, the reality is that implementing and running a good quality and successful online store requires expertise and skills that most dive shop owners not only don't have but mostly it's a case of they don't even know what they don't know. So, to put up their online store they would have to pay someone - someone expensive, if they are going to really get good results. I do this kind of thing for a living. It's not really different than scuba instruction. You can pay somebody that is cheap, but you're almost certain to get what you pay for, so to speak.

Bottom line: Most scuba shops simply do not have the resources to put up a competitive online shop.

Yeah, when Shopify announced they were going to evict firearms dealers with no notice one pointed out that he’d invested over $100,000 in configuration and customization as part of his notice that he was going to file a lawsuit.

 

[Centrals]

Do whatever suit you best but never ever go to the shop, asked all kind of questions and even have the nerve to try it(eg. wet suit and bc). And then order the item on line! That is NOT cricket!

 

[TrimixToo]

I was certified before the Internet existed. An LDS was all there was. And, it was excellent. Then I moved, could not afford diving for quite a while, and got back in later. The first place I stopped was across the street from work. I moved up and down the aisles looking at the new shiny stuff for perhaps three minutes before someone came up. His first words were, "are you certified"? Uh, yes. He seemed to have little interest in anything except selling me training I wasn't ready to buy yet. Later I figured out most of their stock was older models (still new in boxes) being sold for near list prices. I think I bought one or two small things before trying out the next LDS, between home and work.

The atmosphere was much friendlier and I bought a lot of stuff there (several thousand dollars' worth, including at least five regulators, two or three wet suits, a dry suit, several tanks including two sets of doubles, four BCs, etc.) and got a lot of training there. But as I gained more experience (and gear), and my purchases fell off, our relationship soured. When I got upwards of 20 tanks, they wouldn't even consider a volume discount on VIPs for tanks dropped off during the dead part of the season when they would have months to do them. They wouldn't get an He analyzer, instead blowing down the tanks every time (with a third or more of the gas still left in them!) and then charging me for the He needed for full fills. They could have easily afforded an analyzer. One 18/38 trimix fill cost more than an entire T bottle of He *and* another of O2. With deco gas included, training weekend gas cost could easily hit $650. Finally, they charged me for training for a cert they could not actually give me and didn't refund the money afterward, saying I could get the mix fills there (which of course is useless out of town).

Ultimately, I got my own VIP, O2 clean, and gas blender certs (not from them), a compressor, and blending gear, an ultrasonic cleaner, learned from a friend how to service regs, and shifted from my LDS to NESS almost exclusively. Over time, I drifted to DRIS, where I buy most things today. (Not that there's anything wrong with NESS, but DRIS happens to have better stock for some things I favor, and while I'm on the phone with them....etc.)

This could have turned out a lot differently. With some give and take, I'd have at a minimum stayed with them considerably longer. Doing all this stuff myself is a lot of work! Instead, I haven't bought anything from them in a decade. This seems to me as though it's more their loss than it is mine. All my mixing equipment (gauges, hoses, analyzers, compressor, Haskel pump) is paid for by my savings in gas costs now.

I'd love to have had DRIS or NESS close by.

 

[tom lauder]

all i foresee is fewer dive shops and more dive clubs like the european model

This is the answer to the comment on where will you get your fills. When equipment sales consolidate to a few large online retailers there will be few or no LDS left. The club model steps in to provide training and fills. Its much more viable for a club to purchase and run a compressor than a store that relies on it as a loss leader and cant sell equipment competitively. PADI et al may still exist in some form for those that only want to dive on vacation as its pretty tough for a club to condense training to the level that PADI has achieved but I think local divers would be better served by the club model than the store model.

 

[grf88]

As a member of a long established club I am well aware of the benefits but with today's busy lifestyle for so many it is harder and harder to find people to help organise and run them. Somewhat ironic when we were told 30 years ago that the advances in technology would mean that in the future we would have so much free time for recreation and travel. Well the future is here, what the hell happened.

 

[_Ralph]

So, what is a LDS?

For some (like me), this is a very grey area.

Is it the closest shop to where I sleep for 6 months of the year?

Is it a shop that is within 1 days travel?


I can get gas fills anywhere I go. I've gotten them in the middle of the Caribbean with my own tanks.


I'd say 1/3 of my fills are from that closest dive shop, but the rest are from a 12hr drive or 2-3 flights away (with my tanks)

Most of my $$ is spent on quality used items (again, usually 10hr drive away or a few flights), but the local shop doesn't carry the brands I'm interested in (nor could they offer due to supplier ties). The closest is 10hrs drive away. So I order from there.

It's not all only go here or else! Mentality.

Dive shops need to catch up with the rest of the world.

I hate car analogies, but here we go.

You buy a car from a dealership (normally). They do service and small sales (beyond the vehicle).

You don't buy gas there. They'll ship a vehicle OVERNIGHT to make a sale.

Your stand alone muffler/oil shop doesn't sell cars, nor fuel (just like the dealership.

And most gas stations barely sell anything besides junk food and gas.

There is no one stop shop. Barely that in any industry. Why do LDS and customers 'demand' that kind of model? It doesn't win for anyone.


Now, online retailers selling and advertising for less than ethical rates are a different matter all together.

A boltsnap shouldn't cost $30 anywhere. It also shouldn't cost $0.30 either ...


I'm just running into this (again) with XDeep. The retailer I normally support XDeep with can't sell it to my new address (I've spent a few $$$$ over the years with). The 'LDS' within 20hrs of driving don't have the item in stock.... what to do? Wait 2-3weeks for the regional supplier to slow mail out the equipment, or talk with the manufacturer sales rep and find out a solution to support that LDS that actually carries stock of an item (and can legitimately be considered [by customers] a sales centre)?

_R