Comparison of the buying online vs local LDS argument

[northernone]

I'll pop in again with a bit more speculation and observation.

I don't pay extra to support a failed business model to prop up a company that is operating inefficiently.

For example: I don't want to help pay the electricity bill for a showroom. I also don't want to pay a premium because due to poor inventory management and low volume pricing. I also don't want to pay loyalty tax on every purchase just to keep the compressor running as a loss leader.

Spending more for inefficiency is a waste of resources. It's a way I vote with my dollars in support of the idea of reducing our destructive waste as a species.

I do value experienced advice and I do occasionally pay a premium to set up a situation to hear skilled critique. (Though the knowledge offered freely by the forum members is unparalleled in its worth to me)

A side issue... it seems many shop owners I know aren't particularly loving being a salesperson or even a store manager and just love diving. Running a struggling business just to "pay the bills". This is sad to me.

I'd rather pay 100$ for a pair of fins and after another 100$ for an expert to help me decide which are right for me than pay 200$ based on the recommendation of the minimum wage worker at the dive shop trying to make their sales quota.... or worse yet a shop owner trying to push a brand or move old stock.

It's very often a mistake to take buying advice from the seller. (Rare exceptions)

I'm in favour of letting failed business models fail.

Cameron

 

[fullytek]

I'll pop in again with a bit more speculation and observation.

I don't pay extra to support a failed business model to prop up a company that is operating inefficiently.

For example: I don't want to help pay the electricity bill for a showroom. I also don't want to pay a premium because due to poor inventory management and low volume pricing. I also don't want to pay loyalty tax on every purchase just to keep the compressor running as a loss leader.

Spending more for inefficiency is a waste of resources. It's a way I vote with my dollars in support of the idea of reducing our destructive waste as a species.

I do value experienced advice and I do occasionally pay a premium to set up a situation to hear skilled critique. (Though the knowledge offered freely by the forum members is unparalleled in its worth to me)

A side issue... it seems many shop owners I know aren't particularly loving being a salesperson or even a store manager and just love diving. Running a struggling business just to "pay the bills". This is sad to me.

I'd rather pay 100$ for a pair of fins and after another 100$ for an expert to help me decide which are right for me than pay 200$ based on the recommendation of the minimum wage worker at the dive shop trying to make their sales quota.... or worse yet a shop owner trying to push a brand or move old stock.

It's very often a mistake to take buying advice from the seller. (Rare exceptions)

I'm in favour of letting failed business models fail.

Cameron

Then buy from Amazon and dont complain when you cant find a place to get an airfill

 

[Bierstadt]

As others have pointed out, you've got DRIS locally so it's not a fair comparison. I bet you don't fully realize what that means. There's only like 4 online stores, maybe 5 that I'd shop at. DRIS is one of those, and happens to be your LDS. I bet the folks who have scuba.com as their LDS don't understand why other people shop online either. I'd shop at dris, scuba, leisurepro, and amazon for dive gear.

For a while, I used to decide local vs online based on price or availability. Remember LDS typically only stock a handful of brands. If you don't have an LDS selling brand X and you want brand X your only option might be online.

For the past couple years I've come to really appreciate all the extra stuff my LDS does for me. It's a small shop run by the owner. I've often deliberately bought stuff from him and paid considerably more than I could have paid online. When I bought my diverite Nomad XT bcd, I paid $150 more than I could have paid online. I think that was the first time I consciously made the decision to support the local shop when it was a bad financial decision.

But it's a shop that I suspect is barely hanging on. I can call him at 2am and he'll drive in to fill my tanks if needed. He will work on any piece of gear, including modifying it as I need. He'll give all kinds of free advice/training that other shops charge for. For example, when I bought my drysuit from the shop, they charged nothing extra for drysuit training. That includes the instructor going out to blue grotto and doing training/practice dives with it. In the case of the drysuit, I paid the same as I saw online for that suit so I don't think he baked training costs into the price. I'm sure he did make a big profit on a $3500 suit though.

When it came time for warranty work, I brought it to the shop. He boxed and shipped it on his dime (and it's surprisingly heavy). Customer service like that is hard to come by.

Well shoot, I'd buy anything I could from a guy like that too.

 

[stuartv]

Then buy from Amazon and dont complain when you cant find a place to get an airfill

I teach for a shop. I don't want them to go out of business and I do what I can to help.

But, let me play Devil's Advocate for a minute, because I think the attitude you just expressed is part of the industry's problem. The attitude of shop owners that local divers NEED them. You/they act as if them going out of business would be a major problem for the local divers.

If every single LDS in my area closed up, all at the same time, here is what I suspect would happen:

- the need for fills would drive someone new to see a business opportunity and open up a new shop - even if this shop did NOTHING but sell fills.

- people would send their regs off to AirTech or somewhere similar to be serviced.

- people would buy their gear online. It's pretty simple and convenient to order a few wetsuits from LeisurePro, try them on in the comfort of one's own home, and return all of them, or all but 1 if you find a good fit. Even easier for things like masks and fins.

- independent instructors would have their schedules FULL.

- people would book their own trips to anywhere from nearby Ocean City or Virginia Beach to Morehead City to the Caribbean to anywhere else in the world. I've never done a dive trip through a local shop and I don't know why anybody else NEEDS to, either.

- it wouldn't be long before SOMEBODY opened a new dive shop to fill the void.

And all of this is why I have been feeling pretty much since I started diving (which wasn't that long ago) that in modern times scuba shops are going to make or break themselves on their customer service. And I mean customer service in the biggest sense of the word. Not just doing well at handling returns and warranty claims. I mean providing an environment and culture that local divers enjoy. I mean having a shop that people actually like to go visit and maybe hang out at. Having people in the shop that are knowledgeable and friendly and make everyone from the first-time visitor to the regular customer feel welcome every time they walk in the door. Providing training that people feel like was good quality and well worth the money. Providing diving opportunities that leave people feeling like they had valet service but also feeling like they would have paid the same or nearly so if they had booked the trip on their own.

In other words, getting customers to genuinely LIKE them - which will overcome quite a lot of what seems like "financial sense". I.e. will do a lot to sway people to spend more with the shop when they could spend less and purchase elsewhere.

EDIT: And I think people are a lot less inclined to LIKE a shop when the management there has the attitude that local divers NEED them. You can try to hide that attitude, but people are not totally stupid all the time. They will eventually see it when the people at a shop feel that way, no matter how careful they think they are to hide it.

 

[kelemvor]

But, let me play Devil's Advocate for a minute, because I think the attitude you just expressed is part of the industry's problem. The attitude of shop owners that local divers NEED them. You/they act as if them going out of business would be a major problem for the local divers.

Absolutely. A shop owner who thinks he is entitled to someone's business probably isn't going to be a shop owner for long.

Other alternatives to dive shops for fills that are common in various places are dive clubs that buy a compressor or using the compressor at your local fire department. I've never tried it, but scubaboard is loaded with posts from people saying they get fills from their local FD. Of course, one can always buy their own compressor if the financial situation allows.

...and that only matters for "local" diving anyway. Shops at dive destinations aren't going anywhere. The names and owners seem to change occasionally, but I can't think of any real dive destination that doesn't have someplace (usually many places) where you can buy fills.

According to google Maps, there are a LOT of dive shops in the area of fully tek. Probably 20 or 30 shops within 50 miles. That's got to be a tough location to be in. With that many in the area, I bet 75% of them could go out of business and fills would still be easy to find. The scuba market in that area is supersaturated (see what I did there?). I'm not suggesting that I want that to happen.

 

[Bierstadt]

I have been a member of a shooting club for many years. We have a clubhouse and the requisite infrastructure and all our expenses are met with modest yearly membership fees and event fees. Start-up was through the founding members who raised the money for the land and buildings. There is no reason at all a similar non-profit scuba club could not do the exact same thing. We have a shop model in scuba because of our history, not because it is the best model for divers.

 

[northernone]

Then buy from Amazon and dont complain when you cant find a place to get an airfill

Greg, are you suggesting there isn't a successful fill station model that doesn't rely on fills as a loss leader to drive inflated prices on the retail side?

Cameron

 

[Roger Hobden]

Luckily, the complexity and richness of human behaviour cannot simply be reduced to a business model, even the behaviour of humans who try to make a living by managing a dive shop.

Quality person-to person communication still counts, at least in my area of the world.

 

[Teredge]

The internet has definitely had a huge influence over a lot of hobbies.

When I was a total newbie in 1998 and got my open water, there were no "social media" or really active message boards to join to get good info.

Back then I wouldn't have easily figured out where people are diving, what new quarry is opening up, etc.

Add in "social media" and you got people sharing everything and anything about their experience. What was the surface temps last weekend? How was the visibility? What's new for next weekend?

The point is everyone is so instantly connected. People can watch YouTube videos of local diving sites before they even step foot in a dive shop to see if scuba diving is for them or not, gear reviews, popular equipment, etc.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

This thread started off about LP50's. Then it went into the other stuff. I own a dozen steel cylinders including LP50's and 72's through LP85's and 95's. I also own 5 al 80's, 2 al 40's, 2 al 30's, a 19 and a 6. So that's nearly 2 dozen tanks. I have purchased exactly 5 of those new. The rest were bought used. I did have to put left and right hand valves on the 50's but I get them pretty cheap as a dealer.

The cylinders were shipped from Michigan with new plus hydros. I paid 80 bucks each for them. The guy I got them from has sold other sets for 100-125 each depending on what he got them for. I can kinda see buying new al cylinders but steel last forever and there are a fair number of people selling their old OMS 46's or 48's that are essentially the same tank.

My lp95's I got for 300 bucks for the set including bands and manifold. Those were from a guy in Minnesota who decided to give up tech diving. They needed a vis but I do them myself at the shop. BTW we don't give discounts on vis for multiple tanks because I have to put the same amount of work into each one.

The "you can't get air fills on line" crap is just that for the majority of divers. Just about every quarry has a fill station. Many boat ops have one or have a contract with one nearby. Many divers today never even get a fill at an LDS. They travel and the destination has cylinders! It's not like years ago when divers didn't go to organized sites. They needed an LDS to fill cylinders to dive alone in a local lake or quarry they were going into. Sometimes sneaking into.

If the demand is there, someone will set up a fill station. Others will make a deal with a local fire dept or buy their own compressor. Or go in with a group and get one. Dive shops DO NOT FAIL BECAUSE OF ONLINE RETAILERS. They fail because they can't or in many cases they choose not to provide the service and products divers need or want.

My first LDS got pissy with me when I wanted to get into a BPW and Long hose. Kept trying to put me off to wait on his brand to come out with one. So I said screw you and went to DSS directly. He failed eventually because he would not adapt to changing demographics and diving styles. Plus carrying a brand that had numerous financial problems. As well as not being willing to make deals with regulars. Had he been better about TRYING to get me the things I wanted, he would not have lost over 5K easily in business from me that went to on line retailers and another local shop that was tech friendly.

On line didn't close his door. Piss poor service did. He deserved to fail.