Conception trial begins

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While we wait for definitive information, this video is from a National Institutes on Standards and Technology (NIST) project on fire growth in modern furnishings. Ignore the room on the left, those kinds of furnishings have not existed in my lifetime.
I said that once as well.

I had a fire on the Spree. Started in a lighting fixture and before long the whole berthing was on fire.

I had been asked by the Coast Guard the year before if my bunk furnishings were fire retardant. I knew better than to give the Navy Salute¯\_(ツ)_/¯, so I replied in the affirmative.

The pillows were new, the mattresses were, as near as I could tell, 14 years old. Made well before fire retardant standards became a thing on boats.

The walls were plywood. The bed pans were plywood. the mattresses and seat cushions in the salon burned quite vigorously. The fire flashed over twice, but we were still able to set fire boundaries and put it out.

I have no idea about the furnishings in the Conception, but if they were old, pre-2006, there was no requirement to have fire retardant foam when they were built.

That stuff burns wicked fast.
 
I have no idea about the furnishings in the Conception, but if they were old, pre-2006, there was no requirement to have fire retardant foam when they were built.

That stuff burns wicked fast.
Conception launched in 1981. I have no information as to whether the furnishings - and more specifically the galley furnishings where it seems everything really got going - ever had been replaced/updated.
 
The bed pans were plywood.
I thought you had heads. :D :D :D
 
EDIT: To summarize, the passengers were alive and trapped when the captain abandoned ship and while the crew was running around, not knowing how to use the fire hoses.​
The captain exited the bridge deck due to overwhelming smoke. As the boat did not have the legally required second exit from the bridge level and the only exit was on fire, he jumped off the bridge and into the water. Which, unlike 1/3rd of the other crew (who had jumped to the deck) didn’t result in him breaking his leg.

Exactly how was he supposed to get off the bridge when he apparently couldn’t breath (per the radio call)?

Once they allowed the fire to build undetected to the point where it had flames 15 feet high when spotted there was no practical way for that crew to fight the fire given their skills and equipment on hand.

How they ended up with that kind of fire and nobody knowing how to fight the fire is a lot more worth investigating. And that is all the fault of the captain. Lack of watch, lack of FF training are all things he did or did not do.

I’d argue that is the captain is not legally responsible for what happened then the owner is also not responsible. If the captain committed criminal misconduct then it is reasonable to ask if the owner should have know about this. I have no ides if that is how the law works.
 
If you position is that having a night watchman, as required by law for over 100 years, wouldn’t have saved them, then how would the owners actions have helped?
This is a loaded question, but lets split it into two:

1: Is it legally required by law to have a night-watchman? I haven't seen that law posted. However, if such a law exists, that's really damn, likely for the crew and captain.

2: If the owner had installed a ship-wide integrated fire-alert system, the entire ship would have been notified of the fire within minutes of it starting. (a) That would have given the crew more of an opportunity to get assembled and fight the fire and (b) also woken up the sleeping passengers, and given them a chance to get out an enclosed space.

With such a fire-alert system, you're pretty much guaranteed that practically everyone survives the fire itself. Depending on the presence of some kind of life-raft, then hopefully nobody is drowning either.

So the watchstanders in the machinery spaces are watching the CCTV cameras for fire?
A person watching cameras or even wandering around the ship may see a fire, but it would be far less reliable than some kind of ship-wide fire-alert system. It's not free, but such technology has been around for decades, and should be affordable. Most modern houses in the US have them installed.

Depending on the quality of camera, number of cameras, or how close the screen is being watched, chances are nobody sees it. I've never worked as a security guard, but I have to imagine there are few people who can stare at relatively static security monitors for 6 hours.

“There’s got to be a way out...”“There’s got to be more extinguishers...”“We’re gonna die...”
I agree with the passengers. Where is this way out? Where is the adequate fire-equipment? By extension, who is responsible for them not having a way out?
 
I’d argue that is the captain is not legally responsible for what happened then the owner is also not responsible. If the captain committed criminal misconduct then it is reasonable to ask if the owner should have know about this. I have no ides if that is how the law works.
The captain and owner could be liable for different things. The captain for the captain's own actions or negligence. The owner for things within the owner's control, such as....

As the boat did not have the legally required second exit from the bridge level and the only exit was on fire
 
The captain and owner could be liable for different things. The captain for the captain's own actions or negligence. The owner for things within the owner's control, such as....
Well, who understands the coast guard rules better? The dozens of coast guard members who certified the boat without ever noticing this or the guy buying the boat new from a boatbuilder and asking the coast guard to certify it for commercial operations?

The coast guard having inadequate rules, their inspectors not knowing or enforcing the rules, and the coast guard making obvious (in retrospect) safety modifications impossibly complex and expensive is not the owners fault.

There may well be civil liability that the owner just followed the minimal rules and didn’t make changes until the coast guard pointed out issues, but it’s not likely that it was a criminal act.

I have no idea if the owner would be criminally liable if he instructed the captain to violate the rules that require a night watch. Nor do I know if that has been shown to be the case.
 
This is a loaded question, but lets split it into two:

1: Is it legally required by law to have a night-watchman? I haven't seen that law posted. However, if such a law exists, that's really damn, likely for the crew and captain.

2: If the owner had installed a ship-wide integrated fire-alert system, the entire ship would have been notified of the fire within minutes of it starting. (a) That would have given the crew more of an opportunity to get assembled and fight the fire and (b) also woken up the sleeping passengers, and given them a chance to get out an enclosed space.

With such a fire-alert system, you're pretty much guaranteed that practically everyone survives the fire itself. Depending on the presence of some kind of life-raft, then hopefully nobody is drowning either.


A person watching cameras or even wandering around the ship may see a fire, but it would be far less reliable than some kind of ship-wide fire-alert system. It's not free, but such technology has been around for decades, and should be affordable. Most modern houses in the US have them installed.

Depending on the quality of camera, number of cameras, or how close the screen is being watched, chances are nobody sees it. I've never worked as a security guard, but I have to imagine there are few people who can stare at relatively static security monitors for 6 hours.


I agree with the passengers. Where is this way out? Where is the adequate fire-equipment? By extension, who is responsible for them not having a way out?

Re question 1, Yes it's legally required, by the Coast Guard when they Certificated the vessel and every two years it's reinspected and renewed. It's a regulation of theirs, call it a law if you want, either way it's required. And it's specifically stated in black and white on the Certificate of Inspection, which is posted on board for all to see who want to see. It doesn't have a loophole whereby owners can cheap it out and not provide that roving body, and the Captain can shield himself (herself) beneath said stinginess. So a captain should, and most do, insist that the owner provide what the COI requires.

FWIW I've been a Coast Guard marine inspector and Marine casualty investigaror, many moons ago, hold a Hundred-ton Captain's license though rarely used, but have been a diver on several such offshore dive boats. And been watchstanding/roving night watch, from 6 pm to 6 am a couple of times, as Mate or "second Captain". Also a maritime attorney both in the Coast Guard, and as a civilian.

So I've been interested in this trial. But I've been chided by the old saw, "whenever there's a casualty at sea, there are many wise men on shore" Wise women too.
 
Re question 1, Yes it's legally required, by the Coast Guard when they Certificated the vessel and every two years it's reinspected and renewed. It's a regulation of theirs, call it a law if you want, either way it's required. And it's specifically stated in black and white on the Certificate of Inspection, which is posted on board for all to see who want to see. It doesn't have a loophole whereby owners can cheap it out and not provide that roving body, and the Captain can shield himself (herself) beneath said stinginess. So a captain should, and most do, insist that the owner provide what the COI requires.

FWIW I've been a Coast Guard marine inspector and Marine casualty investigaror, many moons ago, hold a Hundred-ton Captain's license though rarely used, but have been a diver on several such offshore dive boats. And been watchstanding/roving night watch, from 6 pm to 6 am a couple of times, as Mate or "second Captain". Also a maritime attorney both in the Coast Guard, and as a civilian.

So I've been interested in this trial. But I've been chided by the old saw, "whenever there's a casualty at sea, there are many wise men on shore" Wise women too.

And as I understand it, it is now in the hands of the jury, after closing arguments last Friday, if I read the news accounts correctly.

Boylan did not take the stand, which probably means his attorneys figured it would only make things worse--or, maybe he just didn't want to, or was afraid to. So all they heard from the Defense came from the closing arguments. I wonder if the jurors feel "cheated", in not hearing from Boylan, but also not hearing from Fritzler?

Who among us has been a juror in a criminal case involving a death, and the death-penalty trial? I've had that experience once, never forget, it a murder case here in New Orleans several decades ago, innocent young man shot down in the street at a bus stop, mistaken identity over a gold chain. The lawyers must have been run out of peremptory challenges, or maybe they wanted me, a lawyer, on it, who knows. I do wish we had heard from the defendant (and particularly his older brother, who put his this easily-lead young man up to it, we found out afterwards.) But we didn't, so the lawyers did all the talking and I didn't feel as though we had been given the "whole story", but that's how it was. We convicted him, not much question, but then we had to deliberate the penalty--death, or life?

Sequestered for three days in a seedy downtown hotel, grateful for two to a room because we weren't allowed radio, TV, or phones. What I suppose could have been a shouting match, wasn't. We ranged from a dropout with a GED who "knew the streets", on up to graduate degrees. We differed, but respected each other--no raised voices or bullying, just hard work of handling this awesome responsibility, respectfully.

I was foreman. After most of a day, we ended up "hung", so it was automatic life sentence. And we had male and female, and black and white, on both sides of an 8-4 split. Took me quite a few days to decompress.

We jurors actually got together for coffee a couple of weeks later. We had kind of bonded.


I know, this has little to do with this tragic fire on CONCEPTION, except in both trials, is seems the jurors aren't going to hear from the "real" actors, just the attorneys doing their jobs, but of course trying to "steer" things,--so they were the only ones giving the Boylan story, but not from Boylan. And the "Fritzler story", but no Fritzler. I would think this is disappointing to the families, in their terrible loss, to have to hear it second-hand.


Enough from me. Thanks for reading.
 
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