Cookies or arrows?

Cookies or arrows? And where were you trained?

  • Mexico -- cookies

    Votes: 5 12.5%
  • Mexico -- arrows

    Votes: 2 5.0%
  • Florida -- cookies

    Votes: 14 35.0%
  • Florida -- arrows

    Votes: 19 47.5%

  • Total voters
    40

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There is an active cat and mouse game going on in Mexico over lines and arrows that is a continuation of the nonsense which has been going on for the last decade.
And until I feel comfortable that some jackass isn't going to move the beginning of the line to another cenote I'll be happy diving Florida caves.

From what I can garner, Mexican caves aren't too safe without a guide, which to me means they aren't safe.

The Grand Traverse in Peacock is a great example. The first leg is an 1800' swim to Challenge Sink. No flow, piece of cake to do on back gas. Peacock is arrow'ed every 100', so halfway in, the direction changes. It's an issue on the first half of your first dive, but once you make it to the surface in Challenge you've verified an exit. Even if there's an event on your way out, if you haven't made it more then halfway back you just turn around and get out at Challenge. You build your knowledge of the system so that when you finally do the whole thing, you already know all the cave.
 
This isn't a difference between tourist and non-tourist cave divers. :D It's a difference between Mexico caves and N. Florida caves. In N. Florida most of the caves have directionals every 100'. Then add in the double arrow jumps. Just in JB in the first 1000' you will pass about 15 directionals. Granted, they all point out, but in a cave like Peacock, that's a different story - 8 marker from P1 to midpoint passage to Olsen, then another 8 pointing towards Olsen. That would mean dropping 8 non-directionals in 700'! And with 3-4 teams!!! Just last Sunday I was in Madison - 4 other teams, all doing various jumps. In Mexico, however, directionals are fewer and farther in between. So the need to lay down any non-directionals isn't that big a deal. You basically have to adapt to your environment.

As far as knowing the cave, I was recently in a passage that I've been in a few times and realized I really didn't know that part of the cave that well and it was very disturbing. Since then, I've been through it a few more times and can now get through it even if the line was not there. It doesn't take a hundred dives somewhere to learn the cave. I just takes a few nice slow dives in which you pay attention to the passage.
 
From what I can garner, Mexican caves aren't too safe without a guide, which to me means they aren't safe.

A lot of that has changed. Things aren't what they used to be. I've only been there once, but already have my 2nd trip booked and my 3rd planned, both with some non-guided dives in systems I've already been in. The big difference is not as many line arrows. Otherwise the lines are pretty much the same.
 
In Mexico, however, directionals are fewer and farther in between. So the need to lay down any non-directionals isn't that big a deal. You basically have to adapt to your environment.

That seems to be the case.

In a 800-1000ft MX penetration I generally see 3 to 5 (counting double or triple arrows as one marker). The distances inbetween mean that you might have to swim a fairly long ways in low or no vis before you get validation (by some sort of marker or turn in the line or something) of which direction you're travelling or location.
 
Another item that someone very experienced in both Florida and Mexico caves related to me regarding cookies, was that the higher flow nature of caves in Florida makes being efficient much more important.

For example, in Mexico, one can afford to futz around a bit more placing cookies as station keeping doesn't cost you much gas.
 
There is an active cat and mouse game going on in Mexico over lines and arrows that is a continuation of the nonsense which has been going on for the last decade.

You are talking about the "feud" between Steve Gerrard and the QR Safety Committee?
 
From what I can garner, Mexican caves aren't too safe without a guide, which to me means they aren't safe.

No they aren't. They are very dangerous. You better stay in Florida. You don't want to come down in person and find out how dangerous Mexico is. Better to read the internet to form an opinion.
 
Another item that someone very experienced in both Florida and Mexico caves related to me regarding cookies, was that the higher flow nature of caves in Florida makes being efficient much more important.

For example, in Mexico, one can afford to futz around a bit more placing cookies as station keeping doesn't cost you much gas.

Well, that used to be true. With the drought, you've got all the time in the world to futz around now... :shakehead:
 
With the drought, you've got all the time in the world to futz around now...

I hope that's true for another 4 weeks for this squirrel, line following, cave tourist.
 
I'm sure it will be. :D You should be doing Intro dives that we could only do on 1/3s because of the flow!
 
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