DAN Report thoughts

[JamieZ]

MF,
You surprise me. Why are you wasting your time with him???? Move on, talk to someone who wants to learn, dont try to ram your knowledge down the only port hole in his head which is his mouth. An attitude like his doesnt make for a good diver. He is a D.A.N. report waiting to happen unfornantly so are the poor b-stards that dive with him.

 

[ladycute1]

Hey folks -- I'd like to try a little diversion for a second.....

I hear a lot said about poor bouyancy control.....

Can someone suggest what the criteria are for good, excellent, or even adequate bouyancy control? What abojective measure could a diver use to determine if their bouyancy control was 'good enough'?

Thanks!

 

[MikeFerrara]

ladycute1,

I can tell you what the requirements are in the training standards for the agencies that I teach. But aside from saying the student must hover for a minute all it really says is the student must exhibit good buoyancy control on every dive. As much as I hate to say it (as a PADI and IANTD instructor) the DIRF book has some simple well worded guidelines for what they think a diver should be able to do at various levels. Unfortunately my shop is in boxes right now or I would just quote those guidelines. Instead I’ll kind of list some points you could use to evaluate yourself.

It goes without saying that you should be able to swim in a horizontal position close to the bottom without silting or fighting to stay horizontal.

If you stop swimming can you maintain depth and position without effort? Can you do this while doing something else like writing on a slate, donating air, clearing or replacing a mask, deploying or stowing a light? How much does your depth and position very?

When you descend can you do so and control the descent such that you stay face to face with your buddy? Can you do so without drifting into or away from them? Can you stop where you want before striking the bottom and hold position? Can you manage other tasks while you do this?

When you ascend do you know what your speed is and can you control it? Can you stop where you want (hit a safety stop for instance) and hold both depth and position? Again can you control the ascent and stay face to face with you buddy? Can you hold your safety stop depth without holding onto a line? Can you do it without a visual reference? What about if you lost a mask or had to share air or if you or your buddy had some other problem or task to manage?

I see many divers separate when descending or ascending. You know the old meet at the bottom and start the dive. In my experience the problem is that during ascents and descents are the most likely times to have a problem. One diver slows or stops their ascent because they have trouble equalizing and the other one keeps going. A few minutes later the diver returns to the surface to look for their buddy. I have seen free flows on descents. I have seen inflators fail on decent. I have seen divers get down so far an realize their gas isn’t on. In any case in addition to whatever the original issue is you then compound it with buddy separation. In the case of an ascent no matter when a problem occurs or what it is you must make an ascent whether it’s an OOA, free flow, bc problem or whatever and you don’t need a buddy separation in addition to it.

There are obviously other skills that help you to be able to do these things like being correctly balanced, trimmed and having good fining technique. If you’re not trimmed properly (for horizontal) you will need to be positive or negative to swim without changing depth. That means that you are doing more work to get the same motion and that your fins are pointing up or down. The most common is a head up attitude. These divers can be 10 ft off the bottom and leave a monster silt trail behind them and not even know it. They will also sink as soon as they stop kicking or that they can never stop kicking or that they are always fooling with their inflator.

 

[Popeye]

scubanarc once bubbled...
MF,
You surprise me. Why are you wasting your time with him???? Move on, talk to someone who wants to learn, dont try to ram your knowledge down the only port hole in his head which is his mouth. An attitude like his doesnt make for a good diver. He is a D.A.N. report waiting to happen unfornantly so are the poor b-stards that dive with him.

As they say, Ad-hominem attacks are the first refuge of the ignorant.

I find your presumptious arrogance entertaining.

 

[Rec2Tek]

Good
1. Be able to go to the bottom and stop before hitting it.
2. float horizontally without significant(more than 5 ft) depth change
3. minimal amount of movement

Better
1. descend stopping before you hit the bottom
2. no hand movement
3. Float Horizontally remaining within 2' of starting depth
4. be able to buddy breathe without a depth change of more than 5'

Best
1. Descend to within 1' of the bottom and stop without touching.
2. Hands remain still at all times
3. 2 minute float @ 6" off the bottom
4. Float horizontally for 2 minutes without a change in depth and no movement.

Here's a start for you most of these came from the DIRF Class skills as I remember them. Consult the book for the correct ones. I think you can get the idea. Most divers are barely"better" and there are very few "Best".
Safe Diving

 

[Popeye]

Popeye once bubbled... ...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Popeye once bubbled...

I believe that -overwhelming- empirical evidence shows that the vast majority of divers are trained to a degree the enables them to safely dive at a basic level.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By -overwhelming- empirical evidence do you mean that the number of injuries is small compared to the number of divers? Certainly it is a small minority who are or will be injured but are they unimportant? Do you feel there is nothing that can be done about it?

I think that if you -could- show a trend, which you can't, it should be addressed. I think a blanket condemnation of the system, and the majority of the instructors in it, is counter-productive. However worthy the goal may be, given the shear numbers involved, I don't think it's practical to believe you can eliminate scuba injury altogether.

What is basic level? I think this is really important.

Whatever the WRSTC standards dejure are.

Here again, it's the diver that must assume responsibility. It's just as much his resposibility to get the training he pays for, as the instructor is to give it. OW training only instills a basic proficiency. Divers do not graduate OW ready to dive the Empress of Ireland. It's a license to learn, like your first driver's license.

In Norway, for instance, conditions require the use of a drysuit for OW training. Does this mean that drysuit proficiency should be required of OW students in Key West?

Simply, no. If a KW diver wants to dive Gilboa in January, he needs skills outside the purview of his origional training.

If a diver moves from Florida to Wisconsin, and goes from a t-shirt to a 7mil, do you expect immediate proficiency?

Say you train a diver to your standards, which you've shared with us. That diver doesn't dive again for a year, when on vacation in the carib. He takes a few dives to get back in tune, while other divers look at him and say "who was that idiots' instructor?".

You (or Walt, I disremember) stated that a diver's instructor should be held accountable for the divers' actions -ten- -years- after certification. I just don't see that.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also believe that accident analysis will show poor diver judgement, NOT RELATED TO OW TRAINING, is responsible for the -majority- of the almost non-existant percentage of accidents that divers have.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree poor judgement plays a major role but why? You say it isn't related to OW training. Isn't teaching a diver to evaluate a dive in relation to their training and ability part of diver training? Isn't teaching the importance of good basic skills and keeping them sharp part of diver training? Where does the bad judgement come from? Are all of the divers who use poor judgement just too stupid to follow their training?

I dunno, Mike, is good judgement something that can be taught?

Certainly not to everybody.

Here's one of my favorites. True story. A "diver" in Tampa, around 1999, goes diving for lobster while intoxicated (hammered), wearing an old plastic backplate and no wing. IIRC, he had no ditchable weight. Solo. Needless to say, he died.

Now, do you think his instructor -taught him that-?

Do you think his instructor should be held responsible???

Teaching people to do something does not insure they'll do it.

And yes, as you say, if a diver uses "poor judgement", that pretty much means he's too stupid to follow his training.

And keep in mind, that if you attributed -every- death, and -every- injury, -completely- to poor judgement, it would still represent only a fraction of a percent of divers in the US.

In fact, it would only represent a fraction of a percent of new divers trained every year, never mind the rest.

 

[cstreu1026]

scubanarc once bubbled...
MF,
You surprise me. Why are you wasting your time with him???? Move on, talk to someone who wants to learn, dont try to ram your knowledge down the only port hole in his head which is his mouth. An attitude like his doesnt make for a good diver. He is a D.A.N. report waiting to happen unfornantly so are the poor b-stards that dive with him.

I see a trend starting where he wants to pick a fight with MF. This is not the first post i have seen hi do that. I personally am not willing to take on Mike's vast knowledge of all, or at least most things diving. I agree though, don't dignify his post with a response when doesn't seem willing to listen and learn. Some people truly beleive their way is the only way and all others are wrong.

 

[Popeye]

cstreu1026 once bubbled...


I see a trend starting where he wants to pick a fight with MF. This is not the first post i have seen hi do that. I personally am not willing to take on Mike's vast knowledge of all, or at least most things diving. I agree though, don't dignify his post with a response when doesn't seem willing to listen and learn. Some people truly beleive their way is the only way and all others are wrong.

You're not very bright.

My recurring theme, throughout this argument, is that divers should train and educate themselves to be able to make their own decisions.

Mike says, if you're not doing it the way I do it, you're wrong.

Your reading comprehension is on par with his.

If you have an argument with my logic, trot it out.

 

[cstreu1026]

Popeye once bubbled...


You're not very bright.

My recurring theme, throughout this argument, is that divers should train and educate themselves to be able to make their own decisions.

Mike says, if you're not doing it the way I do it, you're wrong.

Your reading comprehension is on par with his.

If you have an argument with my logic, trot it out.

I'm not very bright? Thats an awful bold statement to make when you don't know me. The truth is you are just looking for an argument on this board, particularly from Mike and I guess now from me. I do have a problem with yor argument, unfortuately I don't know as much diving theory as Mike so I can't state proof that you are wrong. Maybe in your perfect corner of the world everyone recieves adequate trainging from beginning, dives as deep as they want using only air, and oh yeah...you are a diving god.

 

[jbd]

with lively, spirited debate or argument. When well presented it can lead to all of us learning or at least understanding a different viewpoint although not agreeing with it.

Having said that, lets keep it from getting personal or insulting.