Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training

[boulderjohn]

And then there is the case of Conrad "Connie" Limbaugh - one of those people who's spirit I try to emulate:

Conrad Limbaugh: One of the first to Dive with Research

One of the first,
no formal training,
literally wrote the book for Americans,
lead the field for years,
died in a cave.

From day one he was diving beyond his training. Was he sensible, reckless, an icon or a precautionary tale. Hard to square that circle. His "mistake" was not diving beyond his training but rather; diving an unknown locale while relying on a local guide. Good thing no formally trained divers of today do that sort of thing.

OK, this guy did dive beyond his training. That is because there was no training then. He in fact helped invent the training we receive today.

Lewis and Clark worked their way across America on horseback and wagons, blazing trails across unknown territory.

That does not make it the best way to do it today. I'll take the Interstate, thank you.

 

[lowviz]

Then Eisenhower would likely be one of your heros for building the interstate system, he is one of my heros. But for another reason.

"On January 17, 1961, President Eisenhower bid farewell to the nation in a speech
that is best remembered for his characterization of the "Military-Industrial
Complex," and his warning of dire consequences to our personal freedoms and
self-government should its power go unchecked."

Now there, sir, is a true military leader and instructor.

Biography: Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

[boulderjohn]

Then Eisenhower would likely be one of your heros for building the interstate system, he is one of my heros. But for another reason.

"On January 17, 1961, President Eisenhower bid farewell to the nation in a speech
that is best remembered for his characterization of the "Military-Industrial
Complex," and his warning of dire consequences to our personal freedoms and
self-government should its power go unchecked."

Now there, sir, is a true military leader and instructor.

Biography: Dwight D. Eisenhower

I remember this well. I also heard the story of an incident that occurred late in his presidency. He was working on the budget, and he was specifically looking at all the Pentagon requests. He was routinely cutting each request in half, just as he had always done in his days as a general. He looked up thoughtfully at the assistant who later told the story and asked, "What is going to happen when we have a President who does not know you have to do this?" He knew that the military always requested at least twice as much as it actually needed, and he was worried about a time when the government would give them everything they asked for.

In this last election, we had a candidate who called for giving them more than they were asking for.

 

[DaleC]

OK, this guy did dive beyond his training. That is because there was no training then. He in fact helped invent the training we receive today.

Lewis and Clark worked their way across America on horseback and wagons, blazing trails across unknown territory.

That does not make it the best way to do it today. I'll take the Interstate, thank you.

Everything in context.

During his time there were probably people who told him he was foolish to be diving at all - there were still sea monsters then. The point is he was capable of doing many things to a high degree of proficiency without "formal" education.

Yes we have formal education today, but is the new "ideal" to discredit and discourage that former type of capability? Are you saying you would prefer not to have that skill or that it is seen as a deficit by the modern diver?

 

[boulderjohn]

Everything in context.

During his time there were probably people who told him he was foolish to be diving at all - there were still sea monsters then. The point is he was capable of doing many things to a high degree of proficiency without "formal" education.

Yes we have formal education today, but is the new "ideal" to discredit and discourage that former type of capability? Are you saying you would prefer not to have that skill or that it is seen as a deficit by the modern diver?

Pioneers experiment and eventually find the best way to do things. Along the way, a lot of pioneers die. Once the best way to do things becomes established, it is pointless and foolish to act as a pioneer again. It is especially pointless and foolish to repeat their mistakes unknowingly.

In the earliest days of cave diving, a lot of people died before people figured out the best way to do things. Pioneer Cave diver Sheck Exley did an analysis of cave diving deaths and established a set of 5 rules that are still pretty well followed by trained cave divers today. It is generally accepted that since he established those rules, the only person who died without breaking one of them was caught in a cave-in and could not get out. All the others violated at least one of the rules. Some of them, including Sheck, were trained cave divers who knowingly and intentionally violated the rules. (In Sheck's case he was violating a rule intentionally to try to break a world depth record.) The other deaths are the ones this thread is about--the ones who did not know those rules, did not have the training, and acted anyway, the ways the pioneers did.

And just to repeat, I don't consider petty extensions of training ("I went to 70 feet with only OW certification!") to be part of the discussion. I also think that if someone gives you good advice without a formal certification involved, it counts as training. And finally, I also agree it is possible to get the training in other ways outside of normal channels. I am thinking more along the liens of what I mentioned above, the OW diver who went flutter kicking without a line (or any idea what to do with one) into the silty cavern area of Twin Cave.

 

[Thalassamania]

OK, this guy did dive beyond his training. That is because there was no training then. He in fact helped invent the training we receive today. Lewis and Clark worked their way across America on horseback and wagons, blazing trails across unknown territory. That does not make it the best way to do it today. I'll take the Interstate, thank you.

I'd rather try to stand on Connie's shoulders than take the interstate.

 

[lowviz]

Nice post. -just found out who she is named for.

 

[boulderjohn]

I'd rather try to stand on Connie's shoulders than take the interstate.

Taking the Interstate IS standing on Connie's shoulders. He blazed the trail. He showed the way. Are we supposed to ignore him and explore anew?

 

[Thalassamania]

Standing on his shoulders is picking up where he left off, not just tramping over where he (and now many, many others) had been.

 

[fjpatrum]

THIS MENTALITY and lack of reasoning is ridiculous. It is akin to saying" just becuz there are safe ways to handle or manufacture explosives, doesn't mean I should follow those practices or even bother with training. I mean the odds of getting blown up aren't that great. Besides I like to push the limits and advance the "science". Do you dive solo too?

Diving beyond ones training and skills is very dangerous and can be fatal. AS IN "DRT". DEAD RIGHT THERE!!!

Exactly where did I ever indicate that doing any of those things quoted was in opposition to standardized safety measures? Exactly what is ridiculous about learning something and then practicing it? Exactly how do you think the "safe ways" were developed and how exactly I know about them now without ever having had a training class in any kind of technical training?

What's ridiculous is so many people assuming that one size fits all. It simply doesn't. It never has and never will. I've said it many times in this thread... theoretical education doesn't require help. Practical education may require help but definitely requires practice. The two aren't mutually inclusive, nor mutually exclusive. They are two sides of the same education but you don't have to have one to understand the other.

---------- Post added December 9th, 2012 at 10:08 PM ----------

I can't figure out how to quote what was quoted in your post so: I said "Don't assume just because someone hasn't done it before, though, that they don't know what to do and how to do it."

Sorry, that's exactly what I'm going to assume!

That is probably the safest way to actually dive with someone until you know for a fact they do know what to do and how to do it. That doesn't mean they don't know anything though, which is different. I believe in the saying "trust but verify" and tend to think most other people should too.