Death at the Blue Hole in Belize

[vondo]

I was trained to start timing my "bottom time" at the start of descent, and then start up before my NDL, so "that 8-9 minutes of bottom time also includes the descent" comment doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

What I mean was that according to my computer, I was not close to my NDL. The dive is planned on tables, but I don't plan or dive my dives on tables.

It sounds to me like the problem with this dive is undertaking a dive with significant hazards, perhaps without the appropriate level of training.

As you see, I agree with you on this one. But it's not clear to me it had anything to do with this accident. It's possible the same thing would have happened in the Hol Chan reserve where max depths are 60' or something.

 

[DandyDon]

One thing that bothers me is that they only tried CPR for 14 minutes in a witnessed arrest. That seems like throwing in the towel a little soon. There is a guy in my town that is really happy I did CPR on him longer than that, and he was down 7 minutes before I got there and got started. We worked him 35 minutes before we got a pulse back, and he was back to work 8 days latter. With a few broken ribs, but he forgave us for that.

Capt Wookie was talking on another thread how they do CPR until they get back to shore, which can be hours, and a doctor can call it using available divers onboard in rotations. Wasn't I taught to continue until relieved by medical personnel or until I give out? But they had a doctor onboard who called it. Sounds like he was done when he hit...

James was floating in the water for only about 20 seconds before he was rescued, Baker said.

An emergency room doctor from New York was on board and supervised the cardiopulmonary resuscitation.

After a little more than 10 minutes, she looked at Baker and said, "He's your friend; it's your call."

"Let's do two more minutes," Baker said.

They stopped after a total of nearly 14 minutes.

 

[widget]

Capt Wookie was talking on another thread how they do CPR until they get back to shore, which can be hours, and a doctor can call it using available divers onboard in rotations. Wasn't I taught to continue until relieved by medical personnel or until I give out? But they had a doctor onboard who called it. Sounds like he was done when he hit...

Good point DandyDon.

I spent 20 odd years in sat diving, I have seen young tough 20 year old divers take three steps from the ladder and collapse as if they were pole axed from a hit, and this is a middle aged man!! - I am not a medical person, but I would imagine thats not common in a Heart attack scenario, I just imagine there would have been some warning signs first.?

Sorry, I stick with a deco issue.

 

[openmindOW]

There is a guy in my town that is really happy I did CPR on him longer than that, and he was down 7 minutes before I got there and got started. We worked him 35 minutes before we got a pulse back, and he was back to work 8 days latter. With a few broken ribs, but he forgave us for that.

Very cool indeed.

That is worthy of a separate thread. Would you be willing to post it? Yeah, it's not SCUBA, but it is positive and would be great in either the Instructor forum or the Near Miss Forum.

I do some volunteer CPR Instruction for the Red Cross. I like to collect accounts of successful CPR events. Would you be willing to PM privately with your story? I'd amend it, hiding names, and pass it on to future CPR students.

 

[iztok]

I just read the story. what DandyDon brought up is the first thing that sticks out to me too.

When I took my Rescue class I was told you continue to provide CPU until medical help arrives. 14 minutes is certainly not a lot of time. I would assume O2 was provided as well (increasing chances of survival). I just can't get over only 14 minutes of CPR.

 

[widget]

And he did not "pop out" at 9 minutes, he likely headed for the surface at 9 minutes and took quite some time to get there.

I've done this dive, pretty much exactly as he did. It is a very short, very deep dive, but it is planned and kept basically within recreational limits with a LONG safety stop at 15' or so. That 8-9 minutes of bottom time also includes the descent, so I never got particularly close to NDL.

The possibility for DCS is not really the problem with this profile. Narcosis and gas planning are the more serious issues.

Way below recreational depths? No, 8 feet beyond recreational depths.

1ft is way beyond recreational depths, 8 ft is huge when you are a little older, a little less fit, maybe a little overweight, maybe a little stressed, maybe a little tired and still pushing limits when medical assistance (chambers etc) is hours away.

I've done this dive, pretty much exactly as he did

Hmm, I am not sure its prudent to suggest your dive profile and situation was the same as his, or for that matter the majority, a minute here and a minute there, issues to do with age, stress, illness, fitness level, experience, rested state etc all impact dramatically on a diver of latter years - anyone pushing the limits of a recreational dive at 50 plus is pushing risk - there is no doubt about that.

The possibility for DCS is not really the problem with this profile

I disagree, the possibility of a hit pushing the limits is very real.

 

[DandyDon]

Good point DandyDon.

I spent 20 odd years in sat diving, I have seen young tough 20 year old divers take three steps from the ladder and collapse as if they were pole axed from a hit, and this is a middle aged man!! - I am not a medical person, but I would imagine thats not common in a Heart attack scenario, I just imagine there would have been some warning signs first.?

Sorry, I stick with a deco issue.

While your experiences in Sat diving may be extensive, they really have little to do with how tourists are lead on Belize Blue Hole dives. As has been covered, two DMs take a group down on 80cf tanks for a quick peak and maybe swim thru behind the stalactites, then back up from the bounce dive. Most of us tourists wouldn't have enough air to get into Deco and even those who can last long enough on an 80cf tank at 139-150 ft are well supervised. No one goes into Deco there, really.

As far as some warning signs of a cardiac event: generally the first warning sign is the attack, and the odds certainly increase with diabetes.

 

[TSandM]

Well, if you have no other therapy to offer (drugs, shock, etc.) continuing CPR is unlikely to reverse the issue that caused the cardiac arrest in the first place. CPR can, if well performed, do a surprisingly good job of supporting the brain, which is what you mostly care about. But well-performed CPR requires trained people and VERY frequent rotation of providers. And in the absence of the ability to assess the rhythm, and with no ability to shock, and a 2 hour trip to shore, I would probably have called CPR fairly early as well. The people on the boat assessed the ENTIRE situation and made what was probably a very good call. Don't second-guess them -- the decision to stop resuscitation on a friend is something they will live with forever.

 

[widget]

No one goes into Deco there, really.

Fair enough DandyDon. I havent dived there so I take your word for it.

But...........................(theres always that little "but" not so)

Something else that kind of convinces me it was a deco issue, is that the autopsy said "death by drowning" - not death by "heart attack", which I imagine, is fairly easy to detect on an autopsy, and would have been cause for concern were it detected, yet this was never mentioned.?

A bend hit, maybe not so easy to detect - possibly why it was not mentioned.?

Just mulling things over in my mind.

 

[DandyDon]

Well, this is going beyond a bit - but if it had been my best friend, I would have tried to get the autopsy redone in the states. I'm a cynic about some things.