deco out in space...

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Ian T

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Dr. Deco,
After reading one of your posts about doing deco out in space and, being a tad curious, I have to ask..
Since the pressure is higher inside the shuttle than in space, does that mean that the astronauts do a deco stop or even hit a chamber before they go EVA?

Sounds like reverse altitude diving or something...???? (whatever that may be..)

Don't know if I'm all wrong here, but to me that seems logical though a little strange...
 
I'm not the good doctor, heck I'm not even a doctor. Nonetheless, here's a short explanation of the decompression issues facing spacefarers that I found on an MIT server (click here for the full article with photos and graphs):

Pressurization Issues

For a given shuttle mission, the requirements for cabin pressure and suit pressure are in conflict. A low suit pressure is optimum, as it allows for flexibility and mobility of the suit during EVA. A relatively higher pressure is desirable in the cabin, however, because pressures significantly below one atmosphere combined with increasing oxygen levels poses a threat of fire.

While this difference in pressure may solve some problems, it raises other physiological issues. Decompression sickness is a major concern when extra-vehicular activity is performed. When an astronaut enters the relatively low pressure environment of the EMU, a station of nitrogen supersaturation in the tissue occurs because of the lower ambient pressure. As a result, nitrogen bubbles are formed in the tissue and released into the blood stream. The bubbles tend to gather in joints, which has earned the symptoms the title of "the bends." The symptoms tend to occur either during or after an EVA, and in severe cases can be fatal.

To counter decompression sickness, the crewmembers, prior to EVA, must pre-breathe 100% oxygen. As shown by the figure, this is accomplished by wearing a mask while still inside the orbiter. Through this process, the nitrogen content in the astronauts' bodies is reduced to the point that the risk of decompression sickness is minimized. Pre-breathing time is a function of cabin pressure, as shown by the chart to the left. At a nominal shuttle cabin pressure of 101 kPa and suit pressure of 21 kPa, the pre-breathe time would be over 6 hours. This, however, is an unproductive use of the crewmembers' time, so other steps are taken.devote the necessary time to pre-breathing, however, so several steps are taken to minimize the pre-breathe.

The time required for pre-breathe can be related to the ratio of tissue nitrogen pressure to suit pressure, known as the R-factor. The chart above is for R=1.4, which is used by the United States space program. The Russians use an R-factor of 1.7. With this in mind, it should be noted that lower R factors have lower risk of decompression sickness. While higher pressure suits can reduce the pre-breathe time, American EVA's begin by lowering the shuttle cabin pressure to 70.3 kPa for several hours, as shown in the chart on the right. As can be seen, this allows all astronauts to continue normal activities in a shirt-sleeve environment. Approximately 40 minutes before beginning the EVA at the lower suit pressure, the astronauts breathing 100% oxygen in the suit.​
Hope this helps answer your question.
 
Yeah that helped, or at least some..
Would still be interested in knowing a little bit more (c8
Follow up-question (always have one more)....
A long EVA + strenous activity increases the N2 build-up, if it reaches 'dangerous' levels, then what? still 100% O2 or roll the bendee into a corner? (cool, a new word there... bendee...)
 
I find that while doing my deco time for an eva, that a buddy line tied to the Shuttle tail will help keep me from floating off into space. :D

Actually, that was a cool article.
 
Small pressure drops
What dazzles me is the small pressure drops giving rise to problems. I mean Shuttle dudes stay at 101 kPa (=1 bar). Doing some EVA stuff at 21 KPa (0.2 bar) means a pressure drop of 80 kPa. Equivalent to 0.8 bar or 8 m of water pressure. (going from 70 -> 20 kPa is equivalent to 0.5 bar or 5 m water pressure)

In diving situations 8 m would not give rise to decompression problems. This means what gives problems is
- The shuttelers are fully saturated at 1 bar, wheras diver never fully saturate at 8 meter depth (at least not the slow tissues)
- Allowed nitrogen supersaturations (excess of nitrogen tissue pressure over ambient nitrogen pressure in lungs) are lower at lower pressure. This is known from diving situations
Probably, it is a combination of both.

Follow up question?
Buble-og, I do not get your question quite right.
How could a long EVA possibly could influence the problems. If problems occur, it is the start of the EVA.
Like in diving strenous activity before the decompression is not a good idea: activity increases the amount of 'nuclei' (bubble seeds) that can grow into bubbles during decompression.
There cannot be more N2 build up before the EVA, since in the shuttle the guys are fully saturated with N2. During EVA N2 levels drop.

Plane pressure drops - my question
After this article above I get an understanding for the 'rumour' that cabine pressure drop during fligh would lead to the bends.

Would a cabine pressure drop at 10 kilometer/30.000 feet lead to instantanious bends with the passengers? Does the yellow oxygen masks help to prevent bends (oxygen is the best at that moment anyway)?
 
NetDoc:
It has a lot to do with the percentage of the drop... not just the mean drop.

Addition
Buhlmann M-values define at any given depth the allowed nitrogen pressure in the tissue. Extrapolating the M value value to 0.21 bar environmental pressure (-8 msw) during EVA for the slowest tissue (least allowed supersaturation, 635 min tissue) is:

M = M0 + Delta M depth = 12.7 + 1.03 (- 8 msw) = 4.8 msw = 0.5 bar

The 'theoretical' R factor hence is 0.5/0.21 = 2.3. To high compared to american and russian experience.

Comming from 1 bar (80% N2, 20% O2) , N2 levels are about 0.8 bar, definitely larger than the allowed 0.5 bar during EVA

After 6 hours breathing pure oxygen, the N2 level in the 635 min tissue is:

Pt = Pt0 + [Palv0 - Pt0][1 - e^(ln2/tau * t)] =
= 0.8 +[0-0.8][1 - e^(ln2/635 * 6*60)] =
= 0.8 - 0.8 [1 - e^(-0.39)] = 0.26 bar

0.26 bar is well below the limit the 0.5 bar :bounce:

(And well below the R factor: 0.26/0.21 = 1.23. In space, they probably take even slower tissues into account....:bluthinki:)

Note: I assume extrapolation of dive tables to outer space is not allowed :nonono:. The R-factor found is to high in this way. However, in this example to get a feeling it makes sense....
 
ScubaJorgen...
why would they be fully saturated with N2 in the shuttle? They are breathing pure 02 to get rid of the N2, no?
The article doesn't mention if, nor do I think that, they breathe 100% O2 during the EVA, so that would automatically mean that N2 start building up (or at least - inside my head it does, which is a scarey thought, but would belong in another thread...), add to that the strenous activity, possibly some anxiety - I mean, outside the shuttle they have a pretty big place - wouldn't the N2 levels rise?

and as a comment on your extrapolation...but they don't breathe pure O2 for 6 hours... only 40 min albeit at a lower pressure...

Don't worry if my questions don't make sense or if I don't understand your answers.. physics isn't my cup of tea.... :D
 
Hello Readers:

Let me return to this a bit later. I am off to give a talk to some school children and cannot really treat this as it needs to be.

Contemporary EVA prebreathe incorporates exercise into the protocol. More to come…. :wink:

Dr Deco :doctor:
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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