Definition of "cave" and "cavern"

[AndyNZ]

Seemingly obvious.... but with a spin.

Let's say there was a single passageway into the land, partly filled with water so that you can always ascend to the surface. From a diving perspective, is this a cave, a cavern.... or neither?

Let's then say that this passageway goes so far back that you lose the light zone, does it change the definition?

Finally, what if there are multiple passageways, all dark, with complex intersections, passageways that re-intersect etc etc. But all with access to the surface... I could imagine that if you did surface "somewhere at the back" that navigating your way out would be hard - but is it a cave dive?

 

[sea2summit]

The cavern and cave zone is not limited to being underwater ask any Speleologist (hope I spelled that right_. The definition does not change but navigation and survival skills do. YMMV.

 

[TSandM]

I don't know the formal answer to this, but it's not an idle question. Two friends of mine went snorkeling back into NoHoch, which has a very extensive open water area that goes back almost past the daylight zone (I mean, light is VERY dim and VERY far away). They had some trouble finding their way back. You can get lost in the dark, even if you have air to breathe.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Even Florida's got stuff like that... Its grey area as far as a definition IMO.

Gator Hole in Marianna.

 

[AndyNZ]

The cavern and cave zone is not limited to being underwater ask any Speleologist (hope I spelled that right_. The definition does not change but navigation and survival skills do. YMMV.

That's pretty much what I am asking, about the ambiguity (or not) of the words. Above water, the two words "cavern" and "cave" seem to be used interchangeably. Particularly "cavern" seems to be often used to imply a large chamber within a cave.

Yet there is an obvious distinction in terms of light zone when talking about diving.

 

[Dive-aholic]

The way I see it in regards to diving is it's open water if you can surface to unlimited amount of air and make it back out to day light without ever having to submerge. This doesn't mean you won't get lost, but at least you'll have all the air you need to get unlost. Is it a cavern or a cave at this point? In diving, a cavern is defined as a submerged portion of a cave within the day light zone. Standards of most agencies limit penetration to no more than 200 linear feet from the surface. So if that portion of the cave is not submerged, it doesn't fall within the definition and doesn't apply as far as the standards are concerned. The standards are there to keep you from running out of air. That can't happen in the system you are referring to. However, other things can. If you're thinking about diving this system, can you ensure you will never leave the open water portion of the cavern and go into a completely submerged area unknowingly?

 

[Trace Malinowski]

Several sources related to speleology agree on the following:

Cave vs. Cavern

The terms "cave" and "cavern" are not always precisely used. A cave is a natural underground cavity. A cavern is a connected system of caves and passages.

Caving vs. Spelunking

Clay Perry wrote about a group of men and boys who explored and studied caves throughout New England. This group referred to themselves as spelunkers. This is regarded as the first use of the word in the Americas. Throughout the 1950s, spelunking was the general term used for exploring caves in US English. It was used freely, without any positive or negative connotations, although only rarely outside the US where 'caving' has always been called 'caving'.

In the 1960s, the term "spelunking" began to convey the idea of amateurs, using unreliable light sources and cotton clothing. In 1985, Steve Knutson (editor of American Caving Accidents) made the following distinction:

..."Note that I use the term "spelunker" to denote someone untrained and unknowledgeable in current exploration techniques, and "caver" for those who are."

Cave Diving vs. Cavern Diving
Of course, in diving we are all familiar with a "cavern" being the daylight zone and a "cave" being beyond the daylight zone.

If you are diving in an underground lake or stream with no overhead restricted access to breathable air, I do not think that is a cave dive, but a dive in an underground lake, stream, etc.

 

[PfcAJ]

I pretty much agree, its not a cave in the cave diving sense of the term. However, if the potential exists for you to not be within sight of the exit, I'd consider some type of line or somethin' to make sure you can get out in a timely manner.

Do you really want to wander around in the dark looking for the exit? That doesn't seem fun to me.

 

[Cave Diver]

The way I see it in regards to diving is it's open water if you can surface to unlimited amount of air and make it back out to day light without ever having to submerge.

Damn! Now I'm gonna hafta start carrying my snorkel.

As far as the definition goes, as far as I'm concerned if I need a flashlight to navigate, then it's a cave, regardless of whether I can surface and breathe or not.

 

[AndyNZ]

Thanks for the comments - there is a reason for the question (more on that later), but it is an entirely hypothetical question.... so I won't be wandering around my mythical complex system in search of the way out!!