Deflation in the Scuba Market

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I do not own a dive shop but I do dive with a shop owner who organizes most of our scuba trips. His business has gone down.. well frankly every one else's business has gone down too... On the other hand internet has began to equalize the market so prices listed online hurt retailers.

Unlike any other sport I think diving is most undesirable sport because it requires obnoxious financial commitment not just to get into but to keep up with the sport. In my dive shop a dive class costs a ton... equipment (even if you just buy fins, mask, snorkel and belt) also a ton... and of course gear costs an arm and a leg too. My dive shop also offers a "package" for 2000 which gets you certified and sets you up with everything but the tanks. Ok fine... but 2000?! And each dive weekend of 4 dives runs into 300 bucks?! The word on the street is that scuba is an expensive hobby so people who have considered or have wanted to get certified... are opting out just because it costs so much.

On the other hand.. lets say we look at mountain bike prices. This april I bought a gary fisher opie for $400. I also purchased a hydration pack, a helmet, safety glasses and a pair of sneakers to ride in. Overall I spent $470 on everything. While I do expect my bike to peter out on me in next couple of years.. it costs me zip zilch nada nothing zero to ride my bike. Get home, grab my bike, throw it into the back of a truck and 15 minutes later I am zooming in the offroad. Now lets compare it with lets say 2000 dollars that it costs to get into diving (on a budget) purchasing gear. If I took my bike+accessories and multiplied it by 4... I would still have enough money left over for gas for the next 5 years. For price it costs to get certified for 1 person (and purchase gear) you can get 4 people into mountain biking.

That is the shortfall of diving. Yes yes yes.. its all about safety and research and yada yada... but... retailers seek to maximize their profit by minimizing cost of production. A good example is nike.. they manufacture their shoes overseas, ship them here and make billions of dollars. Likewise similar pair of sneakers made here in usa would yield manufacturer a fraction of return so thats why they all make them overseas. Scuba gear.. I am looking at mine right now. Made in thailand and thailand is where cheap labor could be found.. so... it probably costs 1 dollar to make fins and sell them to me for 50. It probably costs 1 dollar to make booties and sell them to me for 25. It probably costs 1 dollar to make belt and sell it to me for 25... it probably costs 10 dollars to make a bcd and sell it to me for 700... so on and so fourth.

This is how I see it. It should not cost 8000 to get a family of 4 certified and to equip them into scuba gear. Thats 2000 per person... are you kidding me? Scuba sport needs to be cheap and affordable. Make cutbacks without jeopardizing safety. It is possible.. I know it is. It should not cost more than 500 per person to get a person certified and equip him with gear.

Until scuba market realizes that people do not want to spend an arm and a leg.. the market will do exactly what its doing right now... float in the confusion of nothingness.
 
As a general discussion topic, I'm interested in everyone's opinion on deflation in the Scuba Industry.

I was going to post a request that this thread be moved to the BCD forum.

Never mind

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Scuba sport needs to be cheap and affordable.

Why? Says who?


Until scuba market realizes that people do not want to spend an arm and a leg.. the market will do exactly what its doing right now... float in the confusion of nothingness.

Wrong. The scuba market needs to figure out how generate more customers willing to pay an arm and a leg!

Which company do you think is more profitable, Rolex or Timex? (PS - it's not even close)
 
I do not own a dive shop but I do dive with a shop owner who organizes most of our scuba trips. His business has gone down.. well frankly every one else's business has gone down too... On the other hand internet has began to equalize the market so prices listed online hurt retailers.

Unlike any other sport I think diving is most undesirable sport because it requires obnoxious financial commitment not just to get into but to keep up with the sport. In my dive shop a dive class costs a ton... equipment (even if you just buy fins, mask, snorkel and belt) also a ton... and of course gear costs an arm and a leg too. My dive shop also offers a "package" for 2000 which gets you certified and sets you up with everything but the tanks. Ok fine... but 2000?! And each dive weekend of 4 dives runs into 300 bucks?! The word on the street is that scuba is an expensive hobby so people who have considered or have wanted to get certified... are opting out just because it costs so much.

On the other hand.. lets say we look at mountain bike prices. This april I bought a gary fisher opie for $400. I also purchased a hydration pack, a helmet, safety glasses and a pair of sneakers to ride in. Overall I spent $470 on everything. While I do expect my bike to peter out on me in next couple of years.. it costs me zip zilch nada nothing zero to ride my bike. Get home, grab my bike, throw it into the back of a truck and 15 minutes later I am zooming in the offroad. Now lets compare it with lets say 2000 dollars that it costs to get into diving (on a budget) purchasing gear. If I took my bike+accessories and multiplied it by 4... I would still have enough money left over for gas for the next 5 years. For price it costs to get certified for 1 person (and purchase gear) you can get 4 people into mountain biking.

That is the shortfall of diving. Yes yes yes.. its all about safety and research and yada yada... but... retailers seek to maximize their profit by minimizing cost of production. A good example is nike.. they manufacture their shoes overseas, ship them here and make billions of dollars. Likewise similar pair of sneakers made here in usa would yield manufacturer a fraction of return so thats why they all make them overseas. Scuba gear.. I am looking at mine right now. Made in thailand and thailand is where cheap labor could be found.. so... it probably costs 1 dollar to make fins and sell them to me for 50. It probably costs 1 dollar to make booties and sell them to me for 25. It probably costs 1 dollar to make belt and sell it to me for 25... it probably costs 10 dollars to make a bcd and sell it to me for 700... so on and so fourth.

This is how I see it. It should not cost 8000 to get a family of 4 certified and to equip them into scuba gear. Thats 2000 per person... are you kidding me? Scuba sport needs to be cheap and affordable. Make cutbacks without jeopardizing safety. It is possible.. I know it is. It should not cost more than 500 per person to get a person certified and equip him with gear.

Until scuba market realizes that people do not want to spend an arm and a leg.. the market will do exactly what its doing right now... float in the confusion of nothingness.

Interesting statements. Your dive shop owner friend seems to be explaining how the internet is destroying his business instead of looking closely at his business model and figuring out which way to jump.

You bought a $400 mountain bike in April. As you get better, and get in better shape, you will take that mountain bike to places it was never designed to go. At that point, you will go out and spend $2,000 on a mountain bike that will do what you are demanding of it, or spend the same amount getting new derailleurs, brakes, replacing wheels, etc. etc. I agree to a point that scuba is expensive to get into, but for many of us here, it is a lifetime commitment, not a weekend hobby.
Shops can only compete with the internet by adding value to the equipment we buy from them. Lifetime service and parts comes to mind, air fills without leaving tanks overnight, same with nitrox or mixed gas, and throwing their customers a bone like a free fill now and again. I hardly ever go in a dive shop without spending something, and believe me, I already own at least one of everything. I have shelves of widgets I've never used.

All it takes is a little customer service. Calling me by name if I am a frequent customer. Calling me on the phone to ask if I want to go on a trip, getting my Uwatec computers back in a reasonable time. Little stupid things make me a customer for life. Calling my wife a stroke to her face is not a way to gain my enduring patronage. I don't shop at that shop any more. Knowing I am a regulator technician (because they sponsored me for the class) and selling me rebuild kits (since I am responsible for 20 of the damn things) instead of insisting on bringing all 20 of them in every year ensures that I do all of my shopping there.

Everyone tells me my competition is mountain biking/skydiving/rock climbing. I call BS. Scuba diving is dying because of grumpy store owners (it isn't what you thought it would be, is it) and lousy instructors.

well frankly every one else's business has gone down too...

I'm having the best year of my 8 in business. I jumped correctly.
 
Well, I'm part of the coop Bob is talking about, and I like the idea. I have seen far too many new divers in dive shops, being coaxed into buying the "next new thing" whether it suits them or not. This group is representing some good quality but not high-end equipment that is suitable for the kind of diving we do here. The net cost of getting certified and equipped this way is probably a little less than other shops here, but the majority of the money goes to the instructors rather than to a retail shop. The quality of the instructors is pretty amazing, too -- all of them have technical or cave training, or both, and a depth and breadth of diving experience. I think it's a cool model; we'll see how well it works.
 
Why? Says who?




Wrong. The scuba market needs to figure out how generate more customers willing to pay an arm and a leg!

Which company do you think is more profitable, Rolex or Timex? (PS - it's not even close)

I wish I could afford you. Maybe some deep wreck trips.?.?.?
 
RJP:

Your comments, as usual, hit the mark.

Many manufacturers are dumping product and the retail prices are dropping. The "big guys" get the calls first-buy a hundred pair of fins and pay $xxx. Some MSRP prices have dropped 50% or more, and it's not over yet. The industry has lost hundreds of stores in the last three years, many more are now only part time or limited hours per week.

New certifications are significantly down. DEMA has proven weak and ineffectual.

I like NWGD and Jim Lapenta's approach. Offer high quality instruction and charge fairly for it.
In the long run well educated safe new divers will create more of the same.
 
Any company that charges prices "even remotely close to the cost of production" will be out of business by the end of their first day.

I'll let Walmart know that.

Do you have a job? Do you base your pay on your actual cost of your time, or do you seek to earn as much as possible for your work?

Yes, actually I do something along those lines. The skill set and experience I have to a very large extent sets the level of my pay. I could go to other companies in the industry and within a couple of years be at the same pay level I am now. If the company I work for felt they could realize any savings by laying me off tomorrow I don't doubt for a minute that they would do so, as I have seen them do it to other lines of business in the past.

In short, although I seek to earn as much as possible, my employer would like to pay me as little as possible.

Virtually any product sold at retail is marked up 100% every time someone touches it, from raw material, to refined materials, to parts, to produced product, to wholesale, to distributor, to retailer. It's woefully naive to expect that there's not significant profit being made at every step along the way.

What a bunch of absolute, unadulterated BS. Following this logic we would be paying $100,000+ for cars. Retail markups vary widely from industry to industry. Yes, there are 100% or higher markups in some industries like clothing. Other industries like retail gasoline sales have markups of less than 3%.
 
Everyone tells me my competition is mountain biking/skydiving/rock climbing. I call BS.

Bingo!

I did some work for a certain well-known American motorcycle company a few years ago. They were shocked to find out what their main competition was in their most profitable customer segment. Foreign bikes? Nope! Other American bikes? Nope! Trucks? Cars? SUVs? Nope, nope, and nope.

High-end home theater installations!

Who knew? (I didn't, but I wasn't surprised to find it out.)

They thought they were selling motorcycles. They didn't realize that's not what the upper-middle class, 35-59 white male segment who buys a Harley is looking for. They were looking to regain their youth - and that could be equally well-fulfilled by getting a shiny motorcycle... or a really cool stereo.
 
And how about the prices of training and dive trips? It looks to me like OW certification costs about the same as it did ten years ago--or potentially much less if you want to grab one of the great airfare deals that have been popping up for a few years now and do OW in a developing country. Your average 2-tank dive with a dive op is also good value. I used to ski a lot (snow ski, that is), and the price of those lift tickets just kept rising every year.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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