Did you attend the march for science?

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The "protest culture" is simply ridiculous.

...Just please don't ask me to just assume they are credible just because they wear a pink v-hat or wave a pre-printed poster in front of a tv camera.

Yes, it is difficult to take a lot of current "protests/protesters" seriously compared to historic movements, particularly when it seems every other day there is a new outrage that needs to be protested or brought to light.

It's becoming a culture, cult, religion and these marches are evangelical events; serious science shouldn't be intertwined with this but instead should by kept as distant from this culture as possible to maintain credibility and objectivity.
 
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serious science shouldn't be intertwined with this but instead should by kept as distant from this culture as possible to maintain credibility and objectivity.

The science march happened precisely for this reason. Scientists generally tend not to get involved with politics, policy or engaging the public with their research. The result of this behavior is that science has been marginalized and we've continued to see a decrease in funding for basic science in the US. So when scientists sit in their labs and don't speak out, it's easy for the public to make assumptions (usually incorrect) about what science really entails.

Just please don't ask me to just assume they are credible just because they wear a pink v-hat or wave a pre-printed poster in front of a tv camera.

You don't have to assume they are credible for protesting. As per my point above, the idea for the march was simply to raise awareness about the importance of science. I attended the march and it is the first time in my life I've ever participated in such an event. I wouldn't doubt it if there were some clueless idiots there. However, virtually everyone I met and spoke with were working scientists and absolutely understood what they were doing.
 
The science march happened precisely for this reason. Scientists generally tend not to get involved with politics, policy or engaging the public with their research. The result of this behavior is that science has been marginalized and we've continued to see a decrease in funding for basic science in the US. So when scientists sit in their labs and don't speak out, it's easy for the public to make assumptions (usually incorrect) about what science really entails.



You don't have to assume they are credible for protesting. As per my point above, the idea for the march was simply to raise awareness about the importance of science. I attended the march and it is the first time in my life I've ever participated in such an event. I wouldn't doubt it if there were some clueless idiots there. However, virtually everyone I met and spoke with were working scientists and absolutely understood what they were doing.

Hey if you attended the march and are genuinely concerned about a lack of focus on science, than I have no complaint.

But I am really forced to question the premise. Is there really a lack of focus on science? Seems like our universities are overflowing with students aspiring to work in the field of science. You can hardly swing a stick around here without hitting a marine biologist or hydro biologist etc.

It's just my opinion, but I fail to see the struggle here that deserves al all out protest.. or 'walk'.

In my world, I see more of a lack of focus on skilled trades. Try to get a decent plumber, HVAC, or electrician. Sure they are out there, but cost is high and most kids I know have NO interest in working in these fields. Society has convinced our next generation that they are really too good for a blue collar job.

When is the march for "Working America"? I might try and take couple vacation days and see if anyone will pay me to show up??

BTW: you can read this if you think I am all wet.
The Death Of Shop Class And America's Skilled Workforce
 
Scientists generally tend not to get involved with politics, policy or engaging the public with their research.

This might be true for a large portion of scientists, however, I don't think you would assert that climate change isn't highly politicized, would you? It is one of the most politicized "sciences" that I am aware of, outside of evolution/creationism, which for an olive branch I find the push for creationism in text books equally or more disturbing.

The result of this behavior is that science has been marginalized and we've continued to see a decrease in funding for basic science in the US.

I completely disagree with the notion that science is being marginalized in our country or the world in general. We have no shortage of continued medical breakthroughs and technological advancements across all industries. We are not progressing toward a dystopian future where empirical exploration is being thwarted or outlawed.

I think sometimes when funding of science is brought up there is a lot of misinformation or left out info; for example around 60-70% of science funding in our country is from private industry so simply looking at public funding is very incomplete. Second, I think sometimes it is assumed that any public money spent on science is well spent, taking a look at some of the ways research money is wasted I think clearly that isn't true. And finally looking at the following graph Science policy of the United States - Wikipedia I don't see a march worthy disregard for science atmosphere.

As I said before, discussion on public funding of science is an important one, but one that should be had with serious people, not over rhythmic chants.

However, virtually everyone I met and spoke with were working scientists and absolutely understood what they were doing.

Maybe I'm too skeptical/cynical but that's hard to believe. I suppose a lot of it depends on how you define a scientist. I find it hard to believe based upon the speeches and interviews I saw; I didn't see anything about improving peer review, avoiding consensus science which hurts credibility, remaining apolitical again for credibility and you know actual scientific things versus political discussions.

But I am really forced to question the premise. Is there really a lack of focus on science? Seems like our universities are overflowing with students aspiring to work in the field of science.

In my world, I see more of a lack of focus on skilled trades. Try to get a decent plumber, HVAC, or electrician. Sure they are out there, but cost is high and most kids I know have NO interest in working in these fields. Society has convinced our next generation that they are really too good for a blue collar job.

Exactly, this is the real issue the next generation is facing.
 
But I am really forced to question the premise. Is there really a lack of focus on science?

Absolutely! Just because there are lots of science majors doesn't meant the jobs are there. In addition, let's look at funding for basic science. Back in the 80's the National Science Foundation was funding approximately 30% of the grant proposals they received. Today that rate is less than 10%. Here's how bad it is, I submitted a grant proposal a few years ago and it received five external anonymous reviews and all 5 reviews were "excellent." The excellent rating is the highest a proposal can receive. Not only did it receive 5 excellents, but there was not a single criticism of the proposal. This kind of review virtually never happens. Even so, the grant did not get funded. NSF just said, sorry, we don't have the money.

In my world, I see more of a lack of focus on skilled trades. Try to get a decent plumber, HVAC, or electrician. Sure they are out there, but cost is high and most kids I know have NO interest in working in these fields. Society has convinced our next generation that they are really too good for a blue collar job.

Caveeagle, this is something you and I can both get on board with. I've seen lots of college students just "going through the motions" because they were really interested in getting a college degree. I've encouraged many of these students to learn a trade and be dam* good at what they do. Sadly, most aren't interested in that either.

I don't think you would assert that climate change isn't highly politicized, would you?

Yes, climate science is highly politicized. Not by scientists though. The research has been politicized by those who worry that policy stemming from the research will hurt their pocketbook (e.g. Exxon Mobil's mis-education campaign).

I think sometimes when funding of science is brought up there is a lot of misinformation or left out info; for example around 60-70% of science funding in our country is from private industry so simply looking at public funding is very incomplete. Second, I think sometimes it is assumed that any public money spent on science is well spent, taking a look at some of the ways research money is wasted I think clearly that isn't true.

Yes, private industry funds a lot of research. Most of that research, however, is for things that will make them money. For example, there isn't much money in antibiotics, which is why we are running out of effective ones. Things that are big sellers are drugs for things like erectile dysfunction.

As far as wasted money for basic research, there is a big misunderstanding there. This idea of wasted money has largely been pushed by congress members like Lamar Smith. This advocation of wasted money by congress members is disingenuous because they have access to grant budgets. For example, the famous case where it was claimed we spent a million dollars to put a shrimp on a treadmill. As it turns out, the researcher spent less than $200 of their own money to build the treadmill.

As a recipient of federal research dollars I'd be happy to give you a breakdown of how the money is spent, just PM me. For starters though, over 25% goes to educate graduate students. In addition, most of the money actually spent on research goes directly back into the economy. All of the major equipment I've bought from my grants has come from US business and all air travel was done on US-based carriers.

And finally, let's put waste into perspective. Total spending on basic science in the US amounts to about 6.5% of our annual military budget and it makes up about 1% of the total US spending. So about 1% of the taxes you pay goes to support basic science.
 
Just because there are lots of science majors doesn't meant the jobs are there.

Do you believe the government (public funding) should be used to fill the gap in jobs that naturally exist to an artificial level based on how many people are graduating with certain degrees? And if so, how do you decide how many "scientist" in different fields is sufficient? How do we decide when maybe we should be championing blue collar skilled work?

I submitted a grant proposal a few years ago and it received five external anonymous reviews and all 5 reviews were "excellent." The excellent rating is the highest a proposal can receive. Not only did it receive 5 excellents, but there was not a single criticism of the proposal. This kind of review virtually never happens. Even so, the grant did not get funded. NSF just said, sorry, we don't have the money

What was your proposal?

Yes, climate science is highly politicized. Not by scientists though.

You understand how a certain energy industry (oil) might politicize climate change and have an agenda when it comes to policy and how it could affect them financially. What about other energy industries that would benefit from climate change driven policy, wouldn't they potentially have an agenda and bias? Can you see similarly a need to oversell doom and gloom for continued government research money and power to expand an industry to keep themselves and their colleagues employed? Never mind that people have political and economical ideologies that even the most disciplined humans cannot entirely keep separated.

Further, you cannot see the confirmation bias that would exist within a field where nearly all employment with a specific background like climatology is government funded organizations? Are we really to believe that people are choosing to spend 9+ years studying to get climatology related degrees and they don't already have a position on anthropogenic climate change?

As far as wasted money for basic research, there is a big misunderstanding there. This idea of wasted money has largely been pushed by congress members like Lamar Smith.

Never heard of him, my opinion on wasted public research funding is based on reading about some of the research that is funded and just how much funding is provided. Further, it's based upon not only how the research can be capitalized on now but potentially in the future.

I'm sure there is excellent and worthwhile research being done that is publicly funded, there is also a lot that is cringe worthy. You said that private funded research is typically so someone can profit, that might be true, but it also provides a method of minimizing wasteful research; when your own money is on the line instead of other people's money, people tend to apply a little more scrutiny.
 
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Absolutely! Just because there are lots of science majors doesn't meant the jobs are there. In addition, let's look at funding for basic science. Back in the 80's the National Science Foundation was funding approximately 30% of the grant proposals they received. Today that rate is less than 10%. Here's how bad it is, I submitted a grant proposal a few years ago and it received five external anonymous reviews and all 5 reviews were "excellent." The excellent rating is the highest a proposal can receive. Not only did it receive 5 excellents, but there was not a single criticism of the proposal. This kind of review virtually never happens. Even so, the grant did not get funded. NSF just said, sorry, we don't have the money..

So moving from 30% grant approval to 10% does not really tell me anything that sways my opinion on this. Are all grants funded equally? How many of these grants are grounded in science that truly has a common benefit to me as a tax payer? Why can't one of our well-funded universities pony up for some of this science instead of doing that multi-million dollar stadium renovation?

I really am all for scientific research that helps our environment, our economy or even our quality of life. I just think we may disagree on who should be forced to pay for it.

Just having passed through tax season, and found myself in that group who is paying >40% of my income in taxes (all in), and still has not really had the money to take a real vacation in over 10 years.. I get a little irritable when I hear all the demands for federal money needed to pay for their own wants and desires. Meanwhile I am still paying in for two kids going to college that are getting flooded with ideology that make me out to be a greedy b@stard for daring to question the cult of academia.
 
So moving from 30% grant approval to 10% does not really tell me anything that sways my opinion on this. Are all grants funded equally? How many of these grants are grounded in science that truly has a common benefit to me as a tax payer? Why can't one of our well-funded universities pony up for some of this science instead of doing that multi-million dollar stadium renovation?

I really am all for scientific research that helps our environment, our economy or even our quality of life. I just think we may disagree on who should be forced to pay for it.

Just having passed through tax season, and found myself in that group who is paying >40% of my income in taxes (all in), and still has not really had the money to take a real vacation in over 10 years.. I get a little irritable when I hear all the demands for federal money needed to pay for their own wants and desires. Meanwhile I am still paying in for two kids going to college that are getting flooded with ideology that make me out to be a greedy b@stard for daring to question the cult of academia.
Shouldn't your complaint be the allocation of the Federal budget?

The military gets about 54% of the discretionary budget (~600 Billion $)
 
Absolutely! Just because there are lots of science majors doesn't meant the jobs are there. In addition, let's look at funding for basic science. Back in the 80's the National Science Foundation was funding approximately 30% of the grant proposals they received. Today that rate is less than 10%. Here's how bad it is, I submitted a grant proposal a few years ago and it received five external anonymous reviews and all 5 reviews were "excellent." The excellent rating is the highest a proposal can receive. Not only did it receive 5 excellents, but there was not a single criticism of the proposal. This kind of review virtually never happens. Even so, the grant did not get funded. NSF just said, sorry, we don't have the money.
I don't know the details, but a drop of funded grants from 30% to 10% isn't necessarily a bad thing unto itself? It could just reflect smarter choices on what we put our $ towards (our $= taxpayers like me as the government has none)? Perhaps we previously funded a lot of research that might have been solid, but was not really meaningful/necessary (i.e., not going to improve anyone's lives). Just a thought.

I'm curious - if you can share at a high level, what was the subject of the research that you had funding denied for and what did you hope to accomplish by completing this research (i.e., what were the expected societal benefits)?
 
Can you see similarly a need to oversell doom and gloom for continued government research money and power to expand an industry to keep themselves and their colleagues employed?

Again, a complete misunderstanding of how science funding works. We've actually discussed this previously in a different thread! :)

Why can't one of our well-funded universities pony up for some of this science instead of doing that multi-million dollar stadium renovation?

One more place where we completely agree! I would love for our University systems to provide annual budgets for science funding. Instead, they pay multimillion dollar coaching salaries and stadiums, all the while taking extra money out of the general operating fund to keep it afloat. Kind of getting back to what you and Skeptic were both getting at... the average person would rather support a University football team rather than truly support Universities as institutions of higher learning. I have this fantasy where University scientists get an annual budget and the football team has to compete for limited grant funding to go to an away game!
 
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