DIR and/or Hog not for the Atlantic?

[Pumpkin King]

Good points Steve. My advanced trimix course was very "Hogarthian" (LOL), maybe even a little DIRish and somewhat geared toward wreck diving but it resulted in a TDI certification.

My thanks as well, Steve.

Mike, that course description sounds exactly like what I feel I would like in any advanced training I do in the future. That plus an instructor I liked would be just about ideal, I believe.

Everyone else, thanks. Lately I've been doing too much internet diving and not enough of the real thing. Makes things like this seem more important than they actually are

 

[seaducer]

Wow, that guy sure is angry! I am not DIR, not sure I want to be DIR, but I have no where near the angst this author has.

From the article:

Northeast divers do not rely on each other in emergencies, they rely on themselves. The reasoning is that a buddy is just another person to muck things up and be in the way; more likely to cause problems than solve them.

FWIW the old school wreck divers went solo because they were competing against each other for artifacts. If I spent my first dive freeing a ships wheel but didn't have the air to surface it, some scumbag wrecker would do his best to beat me back down to float the piece I got loose, take what I worked for.:no

I don't know if you have been back since this thread started, but he linked back to it and wow. Is this a satire site? From the article...

Here is an example of the fanaticism of the DIR crowd:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/hogarthian-diving/216975-dir-hog-not-atlantic.html
As I said above, not even the tiniest deviation from the DIR dogma can be tolerated. The bitterness and bile in this thread is astonishing. I tried to be as fair and balanced and gentle as I could, but the fact is, nothing will appease a fanatic. Anyone that posits any kind of opinion that differs from theirs comes under attack. I give up trying to be nice.
Please read this thread. You cannot "agree to disagree" with a DIR nut. They are right, and you are wrong. That is the only way they see the world. In fact, you are not just wrong, you are an idiot - a "stroke" - and you are sure to die on your very next dive for not following every letter of their divine revelations. ( Never mind how many cave divers don't come back ... )
Please read this thread. This is not an intelligent discussion between reasonable adults; it's a lynch mob, and it is sadly typical of DIR followers. While I'm sure that there are members of the DIR community who are embarrassed by this sort of thing, they are unfortunately greatly in the minority.

Of course I followed the link and came back here.

 

[rainman_02]

Fair and balanced? Ha!

DIR principles can be applied to many dive situations, from single-tank open water dives to multiple-bottle decompression + scooter dives.

The overarching principle is "bring only what you need" and make sure it is correct for the environment.

Thus, you will not find a DIR proponent in dual rebreathers with 12+ stage/deco bottles and multiple scooters in the open water environment as this author suggests. Instead you might find them in double AL80s, double HP or LP steel tanks, or even single tanks...depending on the dive. You may find them kicking or scootering...or for longer distances, carrying a backup or a long-body (multiple batteries/longer runtime) scooter.

You will find a common dive planning theme. You will find people that are mostly fun to dive with (every group, no matter the size has rotten apples). You will find people who are happy to be your buddy and want to provide any assistance they can to help you enjoy your dive safely.

I do not dive in caves, yet.

I do however dive in and around wrecks.

I do not believe that cave principles are 100% applicable to wrecks...I don't believe that wreck principles are 100% applicable to caves...each have their own challenges and dangers. You should get training for the environment in which you plan to dive. However, there are some things in common:

You're in an overhead.
You can die.
Accident analysis is important.

A continuous guideline to the surface is important (includes line protocols)
Don't dive too deep for your gas
Three lights, minimum

(These are not a sole GUE principles...in fact, I do believe they were Sheck's)

 

[Jasonmh]

Here he puts a picture and makes fun of some DIR divers practicing in a pool:
New Jersey Scuba Diver - Dive Gear & Training - DIR - Doing It Right ?

Then posts on his site pictures of his students practicing in a pool:
New Jersey Scuba Diver - Dive Gear & Training - Dive Training

Pretty silly considering that just about all basic training includes some confined water or pool time.

And he complains that "This is not an intelligent discussion between reasonable adults", but then spouts garbage:
"nothing but newbies and Nazis, fanatics and fools"
"Light up that tile, you lords of the chlorine. Stroketastic"
Fair and balanced ???

Everybody can have their own opinion, but I think that most people see that page for what it is.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think it's kind of funny.

I dive a "hogarthian" configuration always unless I'm diving sidemount (which I don't do very often) because it works where other things didn't but I'm anything but a DIR "fanatic".

I think that guy is just an anti-DIR fanatic.

 

[b1gcountry]

There are definitely some DIR folks I've noticed on this board who tend to give DIR divers bad names. I do agree with his sentence that:

"Oddly, many of my most vocal critics [of non-DIR divers] are "90-day wonders", with little more than one season of warm-water dives and a DIR-F class to their credit. If you fit this description, take your fingers off the keyboard right now before you embarrass yourself."

although I would not necessarily give them credit for the DIR-F courses even, and I would not really associate those types of people with the DIR crowd.

I went through his website a while back, and he spent a lot of time putting together some pretty decent information. The emotional objection to DIR is based pretty much on opinion, rather than experience, but interestingly enough, if you look at some of his equipment pages, a lot of his recommendations are similar to those GUE recommends, and a lot of his disagreements with DIR procedures are because he has the procedures wrong...like when he states that DIR divers always have to wear double tanks. If you read all the other stuff, it's not a bad read.

I've met quite a number of East Coast Divers. A subset of these (not all of them, not even half) were definitely of the mentality that no other form of diving can prepare you for East Coast Diving. Most don't come out and say they are better divers than you are, but there is definitely that implication. I would be interested to dive there a couple times to see for myself. I've been up to the Great Lakes, and Puget Sound, and the conditions they have there I would imagine are pretty similar. Also having been to North Carolina, I've definitely seen the "scavenger diver" persona, albeit in warm water instead of cold.

Tom

 

[vladimir]

there is some hostility involved over misunderstanding the system

My one exception to welcoming all links is that bottomless pool of ignorance and stupidity known as scubaboard.com. Don't bother making or following links from there - they will all be bounced away.

He seems to have some hostility towards Scubaboard too. Is that you, Papa Bear?

 

[RJP]

New Jersey Scuba Diver - Dive Gear & Training - Introduction

Are the opinions put forth under each section's 'DIR commentary' truly representative of Atlantic Ocean divers' (wreck divers especially) or are they just this author's and maybe his group's?

Rich is a nice guy and an accomplished NJ wreck diver, but he doesn't have a "group."



Rich has "Rich's point of view" on lots of things just as we all do. I've dived with Rich and I'm sure that he laughs to himself about my DIR rig with all it's blue H's as much as I laugh to myself at his rig.

That's the way NJ diving is though, especially on our boat. With 18 divers, on any given day you'll have newbies, techies, DIR-folks, hunters, and artifact seekers, all line up along both rails. Everyone gets along and has a great time together - even though we're all doing completely different dives with completely different goals on the same trip.

 

[b1gcountry]

In case Rich (the site's author) is watching this thread I would offer this:

DIR is a system for scuba diving. It is thoroughly thought out, sometimes to extremes, and the originators have sought to solve problems in the most efficient and best way possible. The solutions they give are valid, and tested, but other solutions exist. "Doing it Right" was an unfortunate name, as it implies other ways are wrong. They are not, and the DIR founders have publicly stated as much several times. There are other ways to that are also safe and efficient, although none have been codified to the extent as DIR.

There have been countless applications of DIR-diving outside caves, and in various environments. I've seen it in Seattle, Bonaire, Milwaukee, even Arkansas and local quarries. I would believe a group of experienced and skilled DIR divers would be able to charter a boat, and have no problem using DIR methods to dive any area of the NE Coast. I would have to agree, however, that the types of dives you describe--solo spearfishing, or using a scooter to to dig through a debris field and recover artifacts--would be counter to most DIR principles. The claim that DIR can be applied to many different ENVIRONMENTS does not extend to different ACTIVITIES. To put it another way, if your hammer can't screw in a lag-bolt, does it mean you have a bad hammer, or does it mean you need a different tool?

Thanks for putting so much work into your website, I and many others I'm sure have found it very educational, but go easy on the DIR stuff, would you?
...and BTW, I'm not talking about the DIR-Beer-Necklace story, because that is just funny.

Tom

 

[RJP]

I've been up to the Great Lakes, and Puget Sound, and the conditions they have there I would imagine are pretty similar.

The conditions are "similar" for sure, we just have "more" of those conditions.



I think the take of most NJ divers is that "NJ diving prepares you to dive anywhere" but not that "nothing prepares you to dive in NJ."