Dive Master in training

[Big-t-2538]

There is a difference between perfect bouyancy control and "crashing" down on the bottom. Yeah, students aren't going to nail it on dive 1 for a number of reasons. Are they going to stay off the bottom....probably 99% of the time. Anyone we feel isn't comfortable or able to control their bouyancy doesn't pass and we get to do some more work in the pool before we go back to checking out.

I never mentioned graduates were perfect....you seem to be convinced that bouyancy control is beyond the scope of a BOW class.

And as for AOW....is this where you are supposed to learn bouyancy control...why did you pay for BOW then??? Do you teach this before or after the deep dive??? We teach navigation, night, boat, deep, and experience in our AOW class....to earn a cert, you have to log 400 mins bottom time.

oh yeah, one last thing....65 degrees is a damn cold pool, I'd find another one if I were you.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Davey Diverson once bubbled...


Wow! I never realized that there were instructors out there that put out graduates that were absolutely perfect. What do you teach them in their AOW?

Not perfect but competant. In AOW, I teach them to apply the basic skills (that they already have) to different environments and tasks. If the basic skills aren't there ist's a wast of time to mess with complex navigation or conducting searches. Certainly it makes no sense to start doing deep dives for some one having buoyancy control and trim problems.

No student is going to have perfect boyancy control, regardless of how good the instructor is. Bouyancy is something mastered through practice, not instruction.

Again, perfection isn't required but competance is. Divers who crash into the bottom aren't competant. You might be surprised at what a new diver can do if they're tought to stay clear of the bottom and use kicks that don't leave a path of destruction in their wake in the pool.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Davey Diverson once bubbled...


Given that, it is inevitable that those with imperfect skills will hit the bottom at some point. Students are a good example of this.

Why are dive educators so quick to accept incompetance? A student who is prepared for OW might disturb the bottom once or twice with a sloppy fin stroke, but no more than that. Certainly not enough to ruin the vis like most classes do.

Is it not a requirement of your agency that students demonstrate skills in an open water environment? Clearing a flooded mask in 65 degree pool water is quite different than clearing a flooded mask in 45 degree seawater.

Certainly they demonstrate skills in OW. They are required to do it without wallowing in the bottom though. If a student needs to sit on the bottom to clear a mask they're not ready to be in OW. You don't have to kneel to exhale through your nose do you?

The pool is not open water. And not crashing in the pool doesn't guarantee they won't crash in OW.

But it's a major step in the right direction. Actually if a student can avoid the bottom in a shallow pool it's that much easier for them in deeper water. Why should they crash in OW if they met performance requirements in confined water?

I agree with your sentiment, but it won't happen. It is the nature of new divers to have imperfect control. That's why they're new.

It won't happen because of the nature of the instructors and the agencies. It has nothing to do with the nature of new divers. Instructors with poor trim and finning technique who leave a silt trail behind them are unlikely to be able to teach their students not to do the same.

 

[neil]

Davey Diverson once bubbled...

Uh, right.
All OW students have perfect bouyancy, and never crash the bottom. No OW class ever places students on a line on the bottom so they can do drills. No class ever regroups on the bottom.
That never happens.

Davey,
It happens, but it doesn't need to. I too, used to group my class on the bottom to perform skills, but then I started listening to guys like Mike F., and tried another way. Well, what do you know, it CAN be done. You just have to get them ready in the pool, and that takes TIME. I'm still not great at it, but for the most part, all my OW dives are done without touching bottom (except at the beach in 2 ft. viz where we do the 2 finger walk). I would submit that if you NEED to group students on the bottom, you have too many. The more I teach, the fewer I take.

Neil

 

[MikeFerrara]

neil once bubbled...


Davey,
It happens, but it doesn't need to. I too, used to group my class on the bottom to perform skills, but then I started listening to guys like Mike F., and tried another way. Well, what do you know, it CAN be done. You just have to get them ready in the pool, and that takes TIME. I'm still not great at it, but for the most part, all my OW dives are done without touching bottom (except at the beach in 2 ft. viz where we do the 2 finger walk). I would submit that if you NEED to group students on the bottom, you have too many. The more I teach, the fewer I take.

Neil

Good points Neil. I sure wouldn't say I was great at it either. In fact, one of the DM's that helped with our last class is a guy that I trained from the beginning and his gf was in the class. He came up to me one night after class and said "You know...my OW class sucked, but Rachel is getting a great class".

My in water groups have also gotten smaller in OW.

 

[GQMedic]

Hi! My name is Dennis and my buoyancy control sucks... (Actually, it doesn't)

I think there are some OW students who have it NAILED in thier OW class. Such was NOT the case with me. It took me about 40 dives just be to "decent" at buoyancy control.

At 60 dives, I was a little better.

At 80 dives, some more improvement.

At 100+ dives, I'm still working on it. On occasion, I still kick and pump to slow or stop my descent and I still kick up a little silt.

Not everyone is going to have it nailed right off. For the rest of us, the only solution is going to be to dive more and fumble with your inflator hose with the ol' "pump-n-dump" method until the "feel" for your rig, weight, and so on is "dialed in".

Should buoyancy be in the MUST MASTER list? Absolutely. I don't think it's instructors settling for imcompetance in buoyancy, it's really an aquired skill that requires practice, and MORE practice, at least it did for me. (Still does too)

 

[MikeFerrara]

GQMedic,

I understand what you're saying but it doesn't have to be such a long road. All our students can descend horizontally in a slow controled manor and stop and hover before hitting the bottom before the end of the class. In fact they can do it before we leave the pool. If they can't we don't leave the pool. This isn't to say that they are as good as they will ever be at this point or that their learning is done but they have the tools. IMO, if you don't get them this far all they'll do is go out and practice bad things and they won't get better for a very long time if ever.

The reason divers must teach themselves over many dives after being certified is because it isn't tought in class.

A little change in priorities and some emphisis on DIVING and the rest is easy. BTW, diving is 98 percent swimming, stopping and turning while neutral. This is diving, IMO. If a diver gets a card without learning this they simply weren't tought to dive. How much time did you spend in your class practicing this?

 

[scubaroyster]

Ditto on what Mike & Neil said.

I changed my approach to the training by emphasizing proper bouyancy. I don't allow the students to touch the platform at all.

This includes demonstrating their skills. There are no underwater skills on the OW dives that require the student to not be neutral. Remember, if students can achieve neutral bouyancy without touching bottom, the incentive is they are not required to do the "fin pivot". When I sign them off to proceed to OW dives, they already know how to achieve neutral bouyancy.

My last class was 16 students. I split the class with another instructor. We each had a DM to assist. I didn't tell the other instructor that I was going to teach the skills and require the students to master them with neutral bouyancy.

During open water, not one of my students had a significant problem with their bouyancy. They wern't perfect, but they were aware of their position in the water column. They applied the learned skills and controlled their bouyancy with competence and avoiding over compensation. Yes, I had a student get a little too close to the bottom and that same student got a little shallow on a couple occasions, but the small size group (no more than 4 on any dive) made it easy to point out the offense; the student quickly and properly corrected the error.

I had a chance to observe the other instructor's class that taught her group the way she was taught to. The difference in her student's bouyancy skills compared to mine was significant.

Thanks Mike for your persistence to change our ways because it works well and it doesn't violate any standards.

 

[Davey Diverson]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Why are dive educators so quick to accept incompetance?

I have no idea. All I'm telling you is there is a high correlation between lousy vis and OW classes.

Just the facts, man. Just the facts.

 

[GQMedic]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

How much time did you spend in your class practicing this?

Mike,

Good question, I honestly don't remember spending too much time on buoyancy control in my OW class. That's not to say we didn't spend adequate time, I do remember buoyancy being one of my weaker subjects though during my OW class.