Diver bit off Jupiter during shark feed.

[uncfnp]

shark week is crap. They make stuff up. Last year they used my boat (which I had just sold). They spray painted the stainless prop, scratched it up and claimed that the marks were made by a shark biting the prop and then fabricated a whole story around a shark fisherman - who was just a person they found at the boat ramp. Who knows what else they fabricate.

OMG! Something on TV wasn't true? Next you will tell me "Catching Hell" wasn't accurate and that I can't believe everything I see on the internet! :shocked2:


I have to say right now that I am more worried about walking in the surf on my state's beaches then I am about diving with sharks, fed or otherwise.

 

[sportxlh]

I have to say right now that I am more worried about walking in the surf on my state's beaches then I am about diving with sharks, fed or otherwise.

I've been telling my non-diving friends and family the same thing

 

[dumpsterDiver]

DD: wow that is crazy. You never know what to believe on Discovery anyway. The story BoulderJohn mentioned is a repeat from last year's shark week. I remember wondering about it at the time: if true, it is pretty frightening. Then you weigh the fact that you don't hear of many similar type circumstances very often and it makes you wonder, if the Red Sea story was accurate, was it just an anomaly. After your post one wonders if the analysis was simply fabricated. There's no doubt in my mind that fish can be conditioned: heck my goldfish as a kid was conditioned to look for food when I walked in the room, but I still haven't decided in my own mind if that conditioning makes sharks or fish dangerous. The jury is still out for me. (gotta say that the pictures people post are pretty impressive).

Back to the original intention of this thread: is the diver OK now..... anybody know. I hope he's doing well.

Don't be ridiculous. Sharks are not stupid. they can be trained and they DO LEARN. This is well documented, I have spoken to a very well respected researcher on lemons.. and doc says they definitely learn and remember.

Hand feeding sharks is TEACHING them to over-ride their natural apprehension of divers and to associate them with food. These idiots are feeding sharks from the end of pole spears in jupiter. Think this makes diving with a pole spear around sharks safer or more dangerous?

They are endangering the sharks by habituating them to approach humans for food. I will not be petting sharks if they come into my face.. at the least, they will have their eyes gouged with a spear. Why do we think it is illegal in Florida?

and Catching Hell show.. that was so incredibly fake it was hard to watch. there was zero continuity in many scenes. they used video that was shot years before, hundreds of miles away in the Atlantic and then inserted in the show as something that was occuring in the Gulf . The production of that show was incredibly sloppy. a diver goes down with one gun and then a second later a completly different gun is used to shoot. Would be like getting in a red mustang and then 2 seconds later the scene shows the drivers in a blue camero. They made the divers out to be total clowns.

 

[cbm32]

I dont think sharks are completely stupid.

I do believe they can and do learn.

I also believe that shark feeding can and does bring sharks into contact with humans far more than would happen otherwise during the feed (that is kind of the whole point of feeding them).

Based on my experience diving in Bega Lagoon (and other shark feeding locales in Fiji), where they have been feeding the sharks many many times a week for many many years, I have serious doubts about shark feeding resulting in the sharks that are fed approach divers more or closer than other sharks do when there is not dead fish (chum or from spear fishing) in the water.

I am pretty convinced that shark feeding does not result in sharks deciding that humans are prey that they want to target and actively hunt/attack/eat.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

DD: wow that is crazy. You never know what to believe on Discovery anyway. The story BoulderJohn mentioned is a repeat from last year's shark week. I remember wondering about it at the time: if true, it is pretty frightening. Then you weigh the fact that you don't hear of many similar type circumstances very often and it makes you wonder, if the Red Sea story was accurate, was it just an anomaly. After your post one wonders if the analysis was simply fabricated. There's no doubt in my mind that fish can be conditioned: heck my goldfish as a kid was conditioned to look for food when I walked in the room, but I still haven't decided in my own mind if that conditioning makes sharks or fish dangerous. The jury is still out for me. (gotta say that the pictures people post are pretty impressive).

Back to the original intention of this thread: is the diver OK now..... anybody know. I hope he's doing well.

I spoke to the diver a few days after it happened and there was no major injury - just enough to warrant a visit to the hospital for some tooth marks. I know a fair bit at this point and did get to see video of what happened, but the diver would rather not feed the land sharks and I will respect that. As it is at least two other dive ops have blown the scant available details up to tout their "safe" diving practices.

I do agree that sharks can learn and I've seen some small signs of conditioning with the lemon sharks at the Esso Bonaire. The question is what are they learning. The difference I've noticed over time is that they are more accepting of being handled - for instance when Randy or Cameron are rubbing their heads down, they only close their eyes when a hand passes directly over them. They know there's not a threat of injury there. I'm not sure if the tigers are showing the same signs; given that I've gotten a sense of their "personalities" it doesn't seem like Sophia, Alice, Djenny, or Elke are really acting any differently than they did when they first turned up. The hammerheads are still typically too shy to even come in and eat and at the Bonaire at least the bulls are typically skittish. The sharks also seem to be sticking to their seasonal patterns from last year as well, which means however much they enjoyed the handouts wasn't enough to put them off their normal travel plans.

As far as approaching divers for food, last year Rich hit the wreck during the goliath aggregation (I'm not completely sure, but I believe Emerald stopped the feeds for a few weeks last year to give the other charters a clear run) and didn't see any lemons. I heard one diver on another JDC charter got checked out at close range by a few around that time, but she had sat right on the spot where the bait crate goes. Apparently they swam close and then left when they realized she didn't have food. I've seen that reaction in reef sharks in Bimini at an established feeding spot - when the chow stops coming down they want nothing to do with the humans, and a few days earlier when we swam through that site without food we didn't see them. I get the impression that if they are learning a behavior, it's a more complex set of stimuli than "diver = snack dispenser."

In this circumstance, you're still putting a wild animal with considerable dental armaments near people, and accidents are part of the equation. There are steps to minimize this, and personally I've found if things get too close for comfort it's not too hard to get the shark to back off.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

We have had two guys in our small local dive club attacked in the last few months. One was less than an inch away from death (by missing his carotid artery) and the other just had his fin ripped of, and cracked. leaving him finless in 75 ft of water (on a breath hold dive).

The local operator has had two people KILLED on the shark feed dives and shark bites are so common that many operators wear chain mesh suits. I know many people who have been bitten by sharks. They are dangerous and unpredictable.

It amazes me that this clearly dangerous activity is given somewhat of a seal of approval, yet diving solo to 200 ft on air is viewed as bordering on suicidal.

If this was a normal dive accident - we would all be clamouring for an accident analysis - so we could all learn from it and avoid making the same error. But somebody else gets a bite and it is kept secret as much as is possible. WHY?

 

[drrich2]

Dumpster Diver:

Part of the reason is that we don't see accounts like yours much. Would either of the 2 divers you mention be interested in posting a detailed account of their incidents in the Accidents & Incidents section? Were these 2 guys people you spear fish with? Were these dives where bull sharks were lured in with a little chum so cobia with them could be shot?

Is the operator in question Abernathy? I remember a debate raging about whether a middle-aged diver on a Bahamas trip who disappeared to be found later might've died from other causes & been scavenged after the fact. Is that one of the 2 deaths you mention? Or were the 2 deaths in Florida waters (or near the 3 mile offshore cutoff)?

I'd be very interested to see threads by the 2 divers you mentioned so we could try for accident analysis. I think a lot of other here would be, too.

If they were spear fishing, there is a potential difference. It's been posted in another thread that struggling fish excite sharks. So, as this relates to shark feed dives:

1.) Are fish being speared to give the sharks, or are dead fish/parts being handed out?

2.) The shark feeder may be in a much higher risk (even if still low) compared to the customers. A risk he can decide to take or not.

3.) How much does the above matter to the customer viewing at a bit of distance? How much danger is he in?

Richard.

P.S.: Some time back I saw an online offering for humbolt squid diving, and saw pics of divers in chain mail. We talk about shark feeding, but are there perhaps other animals where people take their chances to experience something special?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Dumpster Diver:

Part of the reason is that we don't see accounts like yours much. Would either of the 2 divers you mention be interested in posting a detailed account of their incidents in the Accidents & Incidents section? Were these 2 guys people you spear fish with? Were these dives where bull sharks were lured in with a little chum so cobia with them could be shot?

Is the operator in question Abernathy? I remember a debate raging about whether a middle-aged diver on a Bahamas trip who disappeared to be found later might've died from other causes & been scavenged after the fact. Is that one of the 2 deaths you mention? Or were the 2 deaths in Florida waters (or near the 3 mile offshore cutoff)?

I'd be very interested to see threads by the 2 divers you mentioned so we could try for accident analysis. I think a lot of other here would be, too.

If they were spear fishing, there is a potential difference. It's been posted in another thread that struggling fish excite sharks. So, as this relates to shark feed dives:

1.) Are fish being speared to give the sharks, or are dead fish/parts being handed out?

2.) The shark feeder may be in a much higher risk (even if still low) compared to the customers. A risk he can decide to take or not.

3.) How much does the above matter to the customer viewing at a bit of distance? How much danger is he in?

Richard.

P.S.: Some time back I saw an online offering for humbolt squid diving, and saw pics of divers in chain mail. We talk about shark feeding, but are there perhaps other animals where people take their chances to experience something special?

The two club members who got attacked in the last few months were freediving and they were trying to spear fish, but had not speared any fish at the time of the attacks. They were not chuming or in the proximity of anyone chumming, but fish had been speared earlier in the area.

The two deaths I mentioned occurred on shark feeding dives from a local operator doing dives in the Bahamas. I don't need to drag their name through the mud to make my point that it is dangerous - however it is my understanding that one of those deaths was confirmed to be from sharks and the other may have been associated with a shark attack, but it did occur during a shark feeding dive.

I know another guy who I used to dive with who was killed by a shark while diving. years ago, solo on a rebreather is my understanding. No shark feeding or spearfishing was involved.

I don't think any of these people are going to be posting accident reports (the people in my club or the guy who got his arm chomped lately).

But your question 3.) How much does the above matter to the customer viewing at a bit of distance? How much danger is he in?

That is a valid question. Who knows - how can I quantify the danger? The one fatality in the Bahamas was a spectator. But that is one data point. I can't quantify the danger to the divers watching- but i am confident in expressing my qualitative opinion that it is not "safe".

I get the feeling that too many people, possibly even you, at one time,, take on an attitude that this wouldn't be "allowed" if it really was NOT safe for the divers. That is the mind set that I find so hard to reconcile. Remember it is illegal in Florida, but the federal government is not stepping in on this as far as I know.

I also have issues with people who fail to consider that feeding dangerous wild animals endangers those same animals when they act aggressive around divers who have the ability (and responsibility) to defend themselves from invasion of their personal space.

I still remember when my dad was hand feeding a wild bear in Pennsylvania when I was a kid. The bear got scared as it walked away, spun around and hunched down and I literally though he was gonna eat my little brother. It was a lesson that has lasted for a long time. Now in Florida, the officials will destroy a bear if it has lost his apprehension of people, the bear does not have to be aggressive AT ALL. It gets put down JUST because it has been taught to come around people.

Attracting sharks with the scent of food is one thing, hand feeding, feeding them from pole spears and petting them is much more of a circus act than an educational experience. But it does look like fun, maybe I will go on one of these dives sometime.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Dumpster Diver I liked everything about your last post until the end.

drrich, you dove Belize last year IIRC. Surely you encountered the four sharks that like to hangout at Halfmoon Caye wall. Those sharks only started coming around and hanging out once the lionfish culls began. They don't care if we don't have a spear and/or haven't killed/fed any lionfish to the groupers/morays/barracuda on our dive. They still hang with the divers and frankly, I find them more intimidating every time I return.

We've been told to be sure to keep our hands tucked and I can guarantee you my hands are hard under my armpits whether I'm eye to eye with one or not.

Recently, on a dive that has lots of nurse sharks, since I'm completely bored by that, I was looking for macro along the reef. Saw something but there was a bit of surge so put my index finger out to steady me and wham! A nurse shark hit my hand and for a second there my finger was between its lips. I'm not afraid of nurse sharks in anyway shape or form but I'm still very respectful.

When we dive, we enter the sharks' realm. We can anticipate how they'll react but we can't know for sure. I'm willing to take that chance in most cases but I'll never go on an actual shark feed. I figure the chances of an "accident" are significantly higher in that scenario.

If you want to see more sharks than you can count on a single dive, some that will line up beside you in the current, go to the Maldives. That's freakin' incredible.

 

[HalcyonDaze]

I think some things I have learned on those dives are how to judge the threat level a shark is presenting and how to counter a shark that's gotten too nosy. I've had two occasions where bull sharks have gotten a little more amped up than I wanted; when I see them pointed right up at me I get the feeling there should be a lock-on warning ringing in my head. In one case I was with two other divers (one with bait) and the other I was by my lonesome with eight lionfish in the can (not an Emerald dive, but a lionfish tournament on the deep ledge). In the first instance we bunched up and kept our eyes on the sharks, and in the second I went head-down and started diving straight at a single bull. They will probably have reservations about hitting something that obviously knows they're coming and doesn't seem to be shying away from a fight.

As far as the tigers I'd rather get razzed for unnecessary roughness back on the surface than let those teeth get close enough to cause an unintentional accident; generally if they get too close for comfort I'll either bop them with my camera or in one case stiff-arm them. Last time they showed up I decided to tone it down a little. Elke, the smallest of the regular tigers, was coming right at me - not aggressively, more like she was swimming my way and wasn't going to stop. All I did was plant the camera under her jaw and give her a gentle shove upwards. Later on during the ascent she was coming up behind another diver - again, not aggressively - and charging towards her sent her away. I think Dianne might have been a little mad at me for spoiling a potential photo op when she turned around and saw Elke swimming away. I'd consider spearing a shark to be an absolute last resort.