Diver fights off 12-foot shark

[Spencermm]

I seriously doubt the legality of the situation would enter my mind as I was squeezing the trigger.

Nor would it enter my mind, but I was wondering about the legality.
In termes of social norms and mores, where I live anyway, it would be MUCH more acceptable to shoot an animal that was behaving in a threatening manner than it would be to shoot a human who was driving in a threatening manner.

 

[Spencermm]

QUOTE by HateCheese -
Kinda goes back to the buffalo theme to me were the Indians killed buffalo and used most all the carcass and the white men killed the buffalo for fun and to show thier manhood.

I suppose some white men did that, probably some non-whites too. However, the larger picture behind the buffalo thing was the railroads hired hunters to kill the buffalo. Seems trains and large herds of buffalo were incongruent.

 

[TGreene]

Kind of a tangent, but I'll play along. To make your analogy remotely close, you need to add it the capability of you as the cyclist to harm/kill/damage the vehicle.....

So, pretend you had a James Bond bike w/ rocket launchers. Now when riding you have someone driving aggressively behind you. At the past 2 stoplights you can hear the ABS kick in, and the stop just short of you. It is clear that they are dangerous. Now an animal pops out ahead of you and you need to JAM on the breaks, but you know that the driver in the SUV behind you will drive right over you. Would you use the rocket launchers to save yourself from the actions of the SUV?

Yep, ridiculous as h@%*, but it was addressing your thinly applicable analogy. Bet you'd try to save yourself given 1) appearance that you could meet your maker 2) possibility to avoid that for today.

How about these:
If I am hiking and a grizzly charges me, would I kill it? Yep
If a bee stings me, will I swat it? Yep
If a water moccasin starts chasing me, will I shoot it? Yep
When I go running, if a dog hops the fence and chases me will I kick it? Yep
If a burglar enters my house, will I defend myself? Damn straight.

I've never killed a bear, have probably swatted bees, never killed a snake, haven't kicked a dog, and never shot an intruder. I believe I have EVERY right to hike in Yosemite, work in the garden, walk by my pond, jog in my neighborhood, or be in my house.

I've heard people express something like this 'you were in the wild, except the dangers'.... Yeah.... What, cause it wasn't 'natural' then I should accept all of the dangers and discount my ability to adapt? If you really believe that, please make sure to not buy a car with an airbag or antilock brakes, accept that your plane will crash, wear glasses, use modern medicine, ride a train ..... Part of being human is adapting to your environment. My environment is simply NOT a cubicle, expanses of concrete, or a condo.

The simple fact that you can't completely defend youself when on your bike has absolutely no bearing on what I can and cant do.

I simply won't go thru life with the believe that I can not and should not defend myself.

In a "broader sense", my analogy does work in this instance, and even more so if you consider your Grizzly in Yosemite... You cannot kill a bear out there no matter what happens, because it's a Federal Park and you cannot by law carry a firearm into the park. You can take "Bear Spray" which is basically pepper spray on acid, and unfortunately to be effective the bear has to be within clubbing distance!

In some states you most certainly can legally defend your home, and in others like Illinois or Massachusetts they will lock you up and throw away the key. The flip side to that however is if someone wants to break in to steal my TV, computer or stereo I don't believe it's worth taking another life over. I'm not only 100% pro-gun, but I was a tactical weapons dealer for several years, so I know the mantra. When I lived in Illinois and was a dealer there, I would have died to be able to have the opportunity to carry legally, but now that I'm in a state where I can and have been for a few years, I haven't bothered to get a CCW yet because it's such a different social climate here. I hunt, fish and am a ranked sharpshooter, so I'm not the stereotypical bunny hugger that you may be thinking.

You stated a few posts back that this was their only shark kill, but clearly none of us knows whether theres any truth in that or not.

My sole issue here is that there is an overriding appearance of this being yet another trophy kill which these guys are well known for via there world record kills. Add to that the release of photos and video, then the need to pose with the tail and jaw, and we have obvious reason to question many elements of this whole story.

If this were you or me or most anyone else here that made a legitimate defensive kill out of desperation, then none of us would be all over the airwaves promoting it, and we certainly wouldn't have released photos to the press.

To be honest, I'm pretty sure that we're actually much more ON the same page than not, but emotions have a way of getting in the way of writing, and the internet has no way of differentiating.

-Tim

 

[ONESPEED]

I'm going to take a risk here and make my own determination that these 2 divers instigated the incident as they had spear guns.

I must say this opening statement makes me question the OP's agenda. I'm curious, ScubaSarus, are you anti-spearfishing altogether? Your wording leads me to believe you are.

Saying the divers "instigated the incident as they had spearguns" is completely presumptuous and myopic.

 

[SkipperJohn]

I am not passing judgement on any one here or involved in the incident, but what amazes me is how quickly people do pass judgement when it comes to killing or harming an animal. And g- forbid if the animal is cute!
If this guy was a hunter and someone attacked him in the woods and he felt this guy, the attacker wanted to steel his gun and possibly kill him, so he shoots and kills the attacker-a human, it would make far less of an uproar. Or if the shark was a cow.
When I was in college I walked in on a bunch of friends. A few of the guys were going hunting. The women in the group were reading them the riot act. Their primary argument "deer are so cute". So if they were ugly and had an utter it would be OK?
I was first going to post that these guys caused this situation intentionally & wanted to do battle with a shark gladiator style, but upon reading several versions from several news agencies, it sure sounds like they were there to harvest a few tuna and the shark changed the scenario. Interesting how no one is complaining about the Tuna!

 

[ScubaSarus]

Posted by Onespeed

" must say this opening statement makes me question the OP's agenda. I'm curious, ScubaSarus, are you anti-spearfishing altogether? Your wording leads me to believe you are.

Saying the divers "instigated the incident as they had spearguns" is completely presumptuous and myopic."

I absolutly am onespeed and wont back down from that. My experienes with 2 out control spearfishermen clambering over a group of divers I was escorting in RI makes me prejudice. They jabbed their spears into my gut both of them from their lack of dive experience. I'v had a spear pointed right in my face from a guy spearing in 10 ft vis that is normal in RI at times. He had no flag. Im scared to be around spearfishermen and my fear prpogates my prejudice.

I also come across the rugged careless type that can care less for the marine environment (you can find that post in NELobsterdivers) were a guy poached a bag full of tiny lobsters for orderbs.

I've come across many dead undersized tautog with holes right thru them.

Speer fishemen at Ft Wetherill (the most popular dive training area in NE) don't use flags so we have no idea were they are so we can't always avoid them.

Its all to do with past experiences that mold our behaviors and opinions today. So you are right about that; and I'm also a vegetarian and nature lover that propels my opinions even stronger against spearfishing.

I have dove out of the cage with sharks as I'v posted and I'll alway treasure that experience and am partial towards sharks.

 

[ONESPEED]

Posted by Onespeed

" must say this opening statement makes me question the OP's agenda. I'm curious, ScubaSarus, are you anti-spearfishing altogether? Your wording leads me to believe you are.

Saying the divers "instigated the incident as they had spearguns" is completely presumptuous and myopic."

I absolutly am onespeed and wont back down from that. My experienes with 2 out control spearfishermen clambering over a group of divers I was escorting in RI makes me prejudice. They jabbed their speers into my gut both of them from their lack of dive experience. I'v had a speer pointed right in my face from a guy spearing in 10 ft vis that is normal in RI at times. Im scared to be around spear fishermen and my fear prpogates my prejudice.

I also come across the rugged type that can care less for the marine environment.

I've come across mant dead undersized tautog woth hioles right thru them.

Speer fishemen at Ft Wetherill (the most popular dive training area in NE) don't use flags so we have no idea were they are so we can't always avoid them.

Its all to do with past experiences that mold our behaviors and opinions today. So you right about that and I'm also a vegetarian and nature lover that propels my opinions even stronger against speerfishing.
__________________"

Ahhh, yes, the truth comes out in the end, all ya have to do is ask the right questions. You sound very much like a PETA member from your misinformed and highly opinionated statements. Why don't you stick to topics you know something about, or can at least spell. I too am a lover of nature, I also happen to be a spearfisherman.

 

[ScubaSarus]

Onespeed said "Why don't you stick to topics you know something about, or can at least spell. I too am a lover of nature, I also happen to be a spearfisherman".

I'm not a PETA member and also realize I'm living today because of lab experiments done on animals. As a biotech student though, I refuse to work on animals (I'm more into electrophoresis). I see what the students at school do to mice, then another, then another, oooops I forgot to monitor this experiment, just do it over with another mice. But still, it is for a purpose.

But I'm also not lying to you by being answering your question honestly and not avoiding it. And opinions is what forums are mainly about so yes my posts are opinionated. And I don't like spearfihing as opposed to the spearfishermen as I have freinds and a boss who spearfishes.

Do you always carry a flag when spearfishing?

Why dont you show me some footage of this Tigershark threatening or attacking the divers that killed it.
All I see is the shark meandering about then calmly floating dead with spears sticking out of it and a 10ft tall diver latched on to it.
Just show us the footage and I may be partial to their story of self defense.

 

[ONESPEED]

Why dont you show me some footage of this Tigershark threatening or attacking the divers that killed it.

I have not commented on that because I, unlike you, don't speculate on incidents I do not have adequate information on. I would be interested in seeing you however, defend your blanket statement that all spearfisherman are a bunch of neanderthals with no dive skills.

 

[Thalassamania]

... Just show us the footage and I may be partial to their story of self defense.

By definition, self defense is always a judgment call. It requires receiving the benefit of the doubt. There were many doubts raised concerning this case, but they seem to have been resolved and we are back once again giving the divers the benefit of the doubt, which does not necessarily require you provide either absolution or agreement.