Diver lost in Cozumel today

[RickyF]

I have avoided getting into the whole issue of whether the DM is hired as a a guide or a protector (or whatever). But in my opinion, if you feel you need a DM with you to keep you from getting lost or killed, then maybe you should not be on that dive in the first place.

I have been on Cozumel dives where the DM escorted someone up and others remained below. The DM let us know he/she was going up to the boat and on one occasion told us which direction we should head in the meantime. I don't think any of us gave it a second thought. I have also had occasion to ascend with a buddy while the remaining divers continued, either using the DM's smb or floating my own so the boat would know where we were. It too was a non-event. Clearly there are some conditions in which it is important that the group stay together, but those don't include an individual diver being unable to safely dive unsupervised. I expect to take care of myself on a dive and not rely some DM to protect me from myself.

If you don't feel you can safely continue or end a dive without a DM near you, then you need to reevaluate the wisdom of making that dive. Obviously, I hope, I am not referring to a situation in which a diver has gotten injured or become ill on a dive, or a sudden emergency has arisen and there is a need to get the group out of the water or away from a hazard, or students, brand new divers, training situations, etc.

Some ops, like Aldora, have a policy that everyone ascends together. Fine, that is their policy and it may well be safer and I have no complaints or criticisms of that procedure. I suppose if a diver feels that they are only safe in a group and when accompanied by a DM, then they should ask about such policies before booking dives.

Where is the diver's "buddy"?? That is what they are for and should not pass that responsibility to anyone. If they do, then they have no buddy! If my buddy needs to ascend, my dive is over! It's that simple... No questions asked.

 

[Craig66]

One of the problems is that we are looking at this from the point of view of good divers who spend hours on scubaboard and in the dive world in an attempt to become better divers. A lot of this information is obvious to many of us and if it isn't should be after reading these threads. We need to also look at it from the Newbies point of view.

They have just finished a PADI course, a course often completed in record time and squeezed into the prevacation period. Within a couple of classes and pool sessions they are now divers. PADI discusses all the dangers of diving but unfortunately does not really really get into how easy it is to become a fatality - perhaps for PADI's self presrvation they do not do this. If the diver is lucky they come out realizing that all that they have is a license to learn to dive. If they are unlucky they come out thinking they know how to dive.

Fast forward they are now on a ship be it RCL or Celebrity and this "very safe cruise line" offers a dive excursion. Hell it must be safe because RCL is offering it. As always docking is late and when the new divers get off the boat they are already late and are herded off to waiting buses and board one of the diveops boats. Equipment is thrown together and you are on your way. Perhaps you are a little unsettled but then you remind yourself that you are on a RCL sponsored excursion and the dive op itself Sand Penny Dive Op is a 5 star PADI op and so they must know that not all divers are experienced and so of course they will take you to the most appropriate reefs. You dont really get a chance to voice your concerns as the DM's are busy salvaging O-rings or jerry rigging gear so that you can dive. A quick dive plan is thrown at you and you are in the water at 90 feet and it is your 8th dive. It is not hard to see how things go wrong. It is also easy to blame the diver and their buddy - Hey they should have known better because they are trained and they passed their course - really? really? Until dive agencies develop stricter requirements and until dive ops become more responsible newbies will continue to succumb to the sport. These two divers might have made mistakes but that is not why they succumbed.

 

[jd950]

Where is the diver's "buddy"?? That is what they are for and should not pass that responsibility to anyone. If they do, then they have no buddy! If my buddy needs to ascend, my dive is over! It's that simple... No questions asked.

My comments assumed that a buddy pair would remain together.

 

[DandyDon]

I'm considering 3 of us for Coz in August. I hate trio teams. So complicated. If one needs to be chased or attended, I got to get the attention of the other and try to take him, etc.

 

[jd950]

One of the problems is that we are looking at this from the point of view of good divers who spend hours on scubaboard and in the dive world in an attempt to become better divers. A lot of this information is obvious to many of us and if it isn't should be after reading these threads. We need to also look at it from the Newbies point of view.

They have just finished a PADI course, a course often completed in record time and squeezed into the prevacation period. Within a couple of classes and pool sessions they are now divers. PADI discusses all the dangers of diving but unfortunately does not really really get into how easy it is to become a fatality - perhaps for PADI's self presrvation they do not do this. If the diver is lucky they come out realizing that all that they have is a license to learn to dive. If they are unlucky they come out thinking they know how to dive.

Fast forward they are now on a ship be it RCL or Celebrity and this "very safe cruise line" offers a dive excursion. Hell it must be safe because RCL is offering it.

Never been on a cruise, so I am unaware of their practices and expectations and know little about what kind of excursions they offer. There are some activities, like perhaps the parasailing things or zip lines, where we are dependent on others to provide a safe environment. For diving I think it is reasonable to expect an op to provide a seaworthy boat and functioning dive gear if you are renting. Knowing how to ascend from a dive or monitor your depth and air and adjust buoyancy and so on is the responsibility of the diver, in my opinion, whether they are from a cruise ship or not.

I see your point, but perhaps it goes to bigger issues like people in general assuming others will provide for their safety and security, or inadequate dive training to begin with. I also mean no disrespect to and make no assumptions about the deceased whose death started this discussion.

 

[Mike]

On the other hand, the cattle boats may be more used to dealing with novice divers and might be more likely to pick an easier dive site...but there is more risk of getting lost in the herd.

The typical scenario when it comes to diving with a cruise ship excursion is the dive op will dumb down the dive, picking a close dive site for necessity of the schedule and picking an easy dive site because the divers skills either totally suck or at best are rusty. Most of this is the reason I don't do dive excursions through the ship when I go on a cruise. A dive op who makes a deal with a cruise ship is making a deal with the devil, the money split is in the cruise ships favor, you're working on volume to make a profit.

These guys going to Santa Rosa wall for me had I been on the excursion would have been a "wow!" moment of pleasure, to be taken there by a cruise ship excursion I would have considered that awesome, since I'm used to the dumbed down dives that you usually will get. A cattle boat op going to Santa Rosa seems out of the ordinary to me.

This is not to place any blame whatsoever on Cristina's husband, because prior to this incident, I would have done exactly what he did.

I don't think anybody actually knows for certain what the husband actually really did. If there is a first hand account from him that I missed please direct me to it. However, nobody really knows exactly how much time passed from when he first realized he wanted to signal the dive master to how long it took to actually do it and then go back after his wife. It could have been almost instantaneous or it could have been a couple of minutes. Whatever the time it was that passed it was too long. I doubt it was instantaneous and I doubt it was as quick as everyone seems to want to believe. It just doesn't add up. With visibility of 60-120 feet in Cozumel, with a diver going upward which would be a diagonal assent if there was strong current, it would take more than just a few seconds for her to disappear under good visibility.

 

[WSOPFAN]

This is from the Sand Dollar website:

Presently, Sand Dollar Sports boasts a fleet of 16 vessels, 130 employees and 7 locations on the Island of Cozumel.

We provide service on average to 250 guests daily or over 90,000 guests annualy. This makes us the largest and safest dive operator on the island. We carry the most comprehensive insurance coverage available. Our clients include Crystal Cruise Lines, Cunard Cruise Lines, Disney Cruise Lines, Azamar to name a few high end ships we work with. Carnival Cruise Lines, Royal Caribbean, Norwegian Cruise Lines, Holland America and Princess Cruise Line are all long standing partners and would be more than willing to vouch for our record of customer service and safety

Then on the home page where it says cruise ship guests click here.......

Reservations for cruise ship passengers have to be made directly with your Cruise Line. Please click on the logo to see available tours

A dive shop that actually refuses to take divers unless they book through the cruise ship. Talk about being in bed with the cruise corporations........
Once again another story of how money won over safety.
What was that about how you are the safest?

 

[Ayisha]

I've heard that before about another dive op that works with the cruise lines. If you're from the ship they ask that you book through the ship because they can get in trouble when they pick you up at the pier with the excursion passengers. The cruise personnel can see the non-excursion passengers get picked up as well by the dive op. When I looked at the difference between booking the same dive through the cruise or the op directly, it cost between double to triple (depending on the island) to do it through the cruise ship. Same for non-dive excursions, usually double. So cruise passengers will try...

 

[dktexas54]

Well, where do I start. Ok, how about the certifying agencies themselves. I am convinced that more scrutiny and regulation of the certifying process is needed. Diving as we all know, is one of the most extreme sports one can partake in.

Sure, flying airplanes, skydiving, mountain climbing, auto racing etc all have their dangers. Let's look at these. Flying- takes minimum 50-70 hours just to get license. Mountain climbing- not aware of any license but never have seen a store like a dive shop, offering for $500 to certify you to climb mt. Kilimanjaro. Auto racing- I guess like mountain climbing, no store offering ride at Daytona 500 for an easy 1 week 500 dollar course.

A person can walk into a retail dive shop, plop down 500 and within several weekends, obtain a card saying they are an open water certified diver. This card entitles this person to go anywhere in the world, and dive to 60 feet.

When I look back over the hundreds of dives in so many different places, I realize how completely unprepared I was for ocean diving. It was through more study, reading, immersing myself in seeking knowledge from the more experienced divers, actually diving in different situations, that eventually allowed to to become, what I consider a competent scuba diver.

I fault the dive industry for promoting diving as if it's as easy and risk free as going to the grocery store.

 

[flots am]

I don't think anybody actually knows for certain what the husband actually really did. . . . It could have been almost instantaneous or it could have been a couple of minutes. Whatever the time it was that passed it was too long. I doubt it was instantaneous and I doubt it was as quick as everyone seems to want to believe. It just doesn't add up.

I don't blame the husband. It's difficult to imagine how little time it takes to go from "just fine" to "panic" then "injured" or "dead". Nothing in any of the recreational training material I've run into even hints at this.

If you want to stop things while they're still circling the drain, but haven't become full-blown panic yet, a few seconds is closer to the mark. In order to achieve this, you need to be right on top of things, right when they happen. This is why it's so important that "buddy distance" be within a fin-kick or maybe two.

It would be nice if this was part of the OW curriculum, but it's not, because it isn't "warm and fuzzy"

flots.