Diving deaths raise safety questions in Australia

[TMHeimer]

CGE925, My bad. Forgot about the DSPRQ. (better than DPRK anyway).
Tzymische, If I were in Ireland I would tend to dive by myself or with a non CFT buddy, but that's just me.

 

[Nemrod]

Safety is a concept that continues to evolve and largely a hunt for something which is never really defined as the definition of is somewhat open. How safe is safe and how much safety does one need? How do you measure safety? Quantify it?

Let the government get involved and I am sure they will figure a way to measure safety and guarantee it.

SCUBA diving is not regulated and neither is the issuing of C-cards by the US government unlike a pilots license.

So you guys want a dive shop, boat captain or DM to request a medical form completed each year by a doctor?

The reason diver deaths are trending up is that diver ages are trending up as well. Older people tend to die more often than younger people, even sitting on their sofa. Really old people seem to have a 100% death rate, imagine that. I wish Padi could do something about that!

The bulk of the diver population, that I encounter are Boomers. Millennials largely do not dive at the same generational percentage. I do not know this as fact, just observation. The youngest Boomers are now 53 years old and the oldest are 71ish and I would say, observational, that the bulk of the active diver population is upward of that 53 years and falls in the 50 to 70 yo bracket.

Yeah, I suspect that has something to do with death rates of divers engaged in the sport. At 6X I am in better shape than most people at 30. But, I also find it really easy to over stress myself. Recently, just a few weeks ago, I realized my heart was just pounding away as I worked into the current to get a shot, I had to tell myself, dude, slow down. That never happened when I was 30. And, even the fatties snowflakes of today in their 30s, they may be out of shape, but they are young and their hearts are still strong just because of their youth, they are less likely to have a cardiac or fatigue issue. As you get older, fitness is good but it does not erase the years. Your maximum heart rate and O2 uptake decrease over the years. And your recovery rate from stress is reduced. And the anaerobic threshold is lowered. I had gone anaerobic.

I never used to get a feeling I have come to have over the last ten years, not panic, I cannot describe it, but on occasion, I really, really, want to spit the regulator out, just not getting enough air. That is the best way I can describe it. It is clearly a sensation but not founded in actual need, a feeling. Back in 1984 I was really getting into the tri-sports. A potential sponsor came to be interested in me and I was run through a battery of tests. I just happen to have a world class VO2 max, Olympic level it seems. I would like to repeat those tests today, I am rather sure I would not be happy with the results. My average bike speed has dropped from twenties to the mid teens (solo riding). Over the last five years it has dropped significantly. This is speed over the exact same course on the exact same bicycle. My swim times have increased for a mile from a low effort sub 30 minutes to dang, dang, that kid sure is fast!

My point is age counts. Yeah, older divers are more likely to get stressed. I actually sort of have an idea of what my limits are due to a life long interest in endurance sports. I figure many do not and therefore exceed their capacity significantly and the result is not good for the older diver. And it is real easy, encumbered in neoprene, heavy tanks, restricted breathing though a mechanical device, harnesses and BCs squeezing on the chest and lack of water comfort to become stressed, rapidly.

N

 

[Tzymische]

CGE925, My bad. Forgot about the DSPRQ. (better than DPRK anyway).
Tzymische, If I were in Ireland I would tend to dive by myself or with a non CFT buddy, but that's just me.

Sure everyone can make their own choices.
However, now I am curious, why ?

As Pretty much every diver in Ireland on some stage been, is or will be cft diver.

- we dive a lot - an average scuba diver in my club gets 50-60 dives a year (season April to September). With most of us hitting over 100 club (I am not counting anything that happens outside the club diving) dives a year - most of them are included in your membership with free air/nitrox fills - so its ca. 4-5euro a dive.
- clubs have own boats, compressors, portable compressors, etc etc. we travel all around the country to dive 100s different sites and are totally independent.
- cft training is very good as cft is a nonprofit organisation run and by members. Instructor to diver ratio is usually 1:1. and it is very cheap - cmas 1 and 2*, nitrox, diving coxswain, rescue diver, diver first responder and advanced nitrox - I paid maybe about 900e total.
- all diving here is deep, ocean diving with very strong currents, cold water and weather rapidly changing - probably like Canada + visibility on the east coast is considered good when you have 1-2m. So diving with experienced and good divers is very beneficial - as it is dangerous here, and I dont remember if there was a year in last 4-5 years with less than 4 fatalities... (and we would very often see much more than that sadly - just to note very rarely these are CFT members - last time 2 years ago - was medical reasons. 90% of people involved in fatal accidents are visitors to Ireland)

 

[Wingy]

I am tempted to say how grateful I am that we in America have avoided the tender hand of government involvement, for the most part, in our sport.

Australia has laws that apply to each state - QLD having the GBR getting the majority of tourist divers has these laws...the rest of Australia doesn't.

They apply to commercial operations - you could be 103 and have your own boat or go shore diving and there is no govt legislation to stop you.

 

[TMHeimer]

Tzymische, I was not aware that one agency was basically all there is in Ireland, nor that all the charters are with them. Though PADI is basically the only shop around here, other agencies, as you probably know, are common in N.A. --- Charter boats from shops will accept cards from differing agencies, so I am surprised at the situation in Ireland. There are dive clubs in N.A. here and there, but not at all the norm. I guess that leaves using your own boat as the only alternative. What about shore diving--maybe especially on the East Coast? Is it rare for someone (or a buddy team) do dive by themselves? I'm not knocking CFT --sounds like a very good organisation, especially diving deep in those conditions. Just not crazy about a required medical exam (since I do it twice yearly anyway).
But dive charters/shops/clubs/agencies are all private, so I have no problem with that. It's when the gov't. gets involved. If I were in Ireland I may well go with CFT.

 

[Mustard Dave]

Tzymische, I was not aware that one agency was basically all there is in Ireland, nor that all the charters are with them.

That isn't the case. I'm only on the other side of the Irish Sea, and I'd never heard of CFT until today!

From looking at their website, and from what Tzymische has posted, they seem similar to BSAC, in that it is a club-based system with volunteer instructors. Scotland also has something similar, called ScotSAC.

BSAC has a presence in all parts of the UK and Ireland (and even other countries), and the likes of PADI, SSI and the techie types do as well.

I'm not aware of any Irish charters being affiliated to any agency, but I'd expect they are similar to the ones in the UK (i.e. no Divemasters, no crew setting up your kit for you, and no agency affiliation) - Tzymische will no doubt clarify.

On the subject of PADI and Ireland, I learned to dive with a PADI outfit, where I live in landlocked Manchester. The school was once a BSAC club, and back then, PADI did not really have a big UK presence. In those days, training was done in a club environment, so a novice course could take months, as pool training was confined to midweek evenings. As overseas travel became more available to average people, many people wanted to learn to dive so they could dive in the warm Mediterranean, but didn't have the time to learn in a club environment. One of the founding members saw an opportunity to offer crash courses, and people would pay to be taught when it suited them. A commercial dive school was formed and they were offering BSAC courses.

As PADI gained a bigger worldwide market share, many people wanted PADI courses, so the school began offering these as well. Generally they would still run BSAC courses for people who wanted to dive in the UK, and PADI courses for resort divers.

One day, the owner was out. His elderly dad lived with him in the flat above the shop, and was looking after the phone for him. He got a call from a chap with an Irish accent, enquiring about diving lessons. He asked him if he wanted to dive in the UK or just abroad. The caller told him he just wanted to dive abroad, so he replied, "We'd best do you a PADI course then...", which seemed to offend the Irish caller...

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I am certainly in favor of doing what is reasonable to keep people safe but I think there is a limit. I can see the need for insurance companies to require checks for coverage. If you want the coverage.. you have to pay the price.. in dollars and any other requirements they impose.

I can see that dive operations need to protect themselves from litigation. If you want their service.. you pay the price ... in dollars and any other requirements they impose.

I am not in favour of Government imposed regulations beyond the absolute minimum.

My buddies also have a vested interest in my ability to conduct the dive as I have a vested interest in their ability to conduct the dive. I prefer to make my own choices and enjoy whatever consequences come of them and not have them imposed by some legal eagle.

I saw a great presentation by @Simon Mitchell on the topic I will have to see if I can find it and post the link. Perhaps he will see this and post a link for us. It was a discussion about Medicals and Medical questionnaires I believe it was presented in South Africa to Dive Medical Professionals....

The problem we have here is that some Doctors see doing "Dive Medicals" as just another income stream. They "get on the list" with no real knowledge or commitment to diving. A friend of mine went to one of these type. He had her go through a long succession of tests (which she had to pay for) but in spite of positive test results refused to sign her off as fit to dive because in his opinion nobody over 50 should be diving! Some are just too worried about being held liable if something goes wrong that they are so ultra conservative it is crazy.

I know my limits, I dive within them. Some day I guarantee I will die. I hope it isn't while diving for the sake of my buddies. I will do all I reasonable can to avoid that but I intend to participate in life until I die not just exist in some "safe boring cocoon".

I guess I won't be diving in Quebec or Ireland but as I age my dives are more conservative so cold, deep heavy current dives are not on my to do list anyway!

 

[Tzymische]

Tzymische, I was not aware that one agency was basically all there is in Ireland, nor that all the charters are with them. Though PADI is basically the only shop around here, other agencies, as you probably know, are common in N.A. --- Charter boats from shops will accept cards from differing agencies, so I am surprised at the situation in Ireland. There are dive clubs in N.A. here and there, but not at all the norm. I guess that leaves using your own boat as the only alternative. What about shore diving--maybe especially on the East Coast? Is it rare for someone (or a buddy team) do dive by themselves? I'm not knocking CFT --sounds like a very good organisation, especially diving deep in those conditions. Just not crazy about a required medical exam (since I do it twice yearly anyway).
But dive charters/shops/clubs/agencies are all private, so I have no problem with that. It's when the gov't. gets involved. If I were in Ireland I may well go with CFT.

Ok looks like some confusion here - sorry about that

- there are other agencies here there is a good number of PADI dive centers (very good ones)
- we have private charters
- there's no problem with shore diving or diving with your buddy or on your own
- there are other agencies as well (I train also thru TDI, there's SDI, GUE, PADI and couple other present)

most importantly CFT is NOT regulated, created or in any way or form dependent on Goverment. CFT is affiliated to CMAS when it comes to keeping certain standards of training. All of the decisions, policies etc are put together by divers for divers.

Mustard Diver => very true - its exactly like BSAC (except much smaller and we like each other in it ) or ScotSAC etc. There's couple BSAC clubs in Ireland (I know of at least 2 I think).

As for charters yeah - that's the case - you can get on the boat - but there's no divemasters, no hand holding, no equipment being setup for you.

As for the story about Irish diver taking offence - cant really comment - there's always one isnt it? We have great relationship with some PADI centers in Ireland and Abroad.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Here is the link to Dr Mitchel's presentation. Well worth watching as is anything by Simone Mitchell IMHO