Diving Education Today

[Slonda828]

Nevermind.

 

[DCBC]

Here is another question though. Who's responsibility is the training? The governing body, the instructor, the equip manufactures, the dive ops, or the diver? I ended up doing two OWD courses, one at a resort, one at the local dive shop. It was hard to see the similarity between the two courses, but at the end of the day, it is still my neck. Neither course outright lied to me, one just emphasised the danger and need for information more.

As a society I find we look for more instant gratification, especially amongst the young and the rich. And, we search for someone else to teach us. I actually go back and fault our education systems for the situation with diver training, and the problem I see with education is lack of funds (why I quit being a teacher). We seem more interested in presenting ciriculum instead of concentrating on student learning. The current OWD course is a good example. Anyone who can memorize the answers from the chapter summaries can pass the test. The pool skills are relatively simple. No where do we actually test the students comprehension. For example can you as an instructor fail me if I pass the test, but actually have no comprehension of what DCS is? (I just know that my instructor says its bad, but they also said beer was bad too, so I dont really believe them) All the test did was prove I could memorize the chapter summaries.

Some may say that the responsibility is on the student. However it's difficult to know, what you don't know. Today the student will most often go to a LDS to be trained.

The LDS (in most cases) wants to maximize profit. To do so, the majority of them align themselves with PADI. PADI became the largest by having the lowest standards. For example when I first became an Instructor in the early 70's the courses were time driven. A PADI course was a minimum of 27 hours, NAUI 34. A PADI store had an advantage of either charging less money for training (it cost them less) or sell their courses for the same price and increasing profits. Either way from a business perspective, PADI had an upper hand. So right from the get go, "the industry" saw an advantage to lowering the standards.

Instructors generally go where there's work. If there's more opportunity with PADI that's the direction that they take. Again the movement is towards the lowest standards that are the easiest, quickest and sometimes least expensive to obtain. Like you have mentioned "instant gratification."

I believe that the direction of diver training has been based upon greed. Who's responsible, our Society as a whole. I guess I just don't like the direction things have taken. Divers are becoming less and less competent.

We fear giving people the power to subjectively grade someone because we fear personal agendas and prejidices. I would rather see more money spent on instructor training and subjective grading of instructors and students than money spent on standardization. BUT that removes control from governing bodies like PADI, and that is something they are not going to go for.

I agree. It's like leaving the Fox to guard the Hen house.

 

[DCBC]

Why learn to buddy breath when you have octo?

Octopus regulators have been known to fail. They are dragged around in the mud, not serviced as regularly as they should be. I have found a hole in a diaphram of my regulator on the pre-dive check. I'm a regulator technician and look after my personal gear better than most. If I hadn't checked (and found) the defective part and my buddy needed it, unless he knew how to buddy breath (I wont dive with you unless you can) he would have been SOL. The answer to your question is that mechanical parts fail; shi* happens.

Why are there different skill sets for commercial divers and recreational divers? Easy: one is a profession, and one is a hobby.

Both are human and both can drown in water. Both can experience DCS and AGE. As far as the basics are concerned, they are the same. The only major differences in the diving is the equipment they eventually employ, the conditions and depth.

In some cases you would think that the recreational diver should be better trained. Commercially when I do a decompression dive, I have a decompression chamber on-site, an unlimited supply of gas, communication with the surface and a team of experienced people backing me up including a Paramedic and often a Hyperbaric Physician on-site (saturation). Solo divers have nobody and a buddy pair has the victim and one person who may not be trained to help. Think about it.

You don't expect civilian gun owners to have the same marksmanship & tactical training as a soldier would, do you?

If they hold a gun, they should know enough not to shoot themselves in the foot.

A certain skill sets are no longer required because they're no longer needed. I'm a degreed engineer and I cannot use a slide rule to save my life. Does that mean I'm not as well trained as my predecessor?

If your life depended upon you getting an answer and the power went out, I'd have to say that you are not as well trained as your predecessor. My proof? You would die; he would not.

 

[dadediver]

Octopus regulators have been known to fail. They are dragged around in the mud, not serviced as regularly as they should be. I have found a hole in a diaphram of my regulator on the pre-dive check. I'm a regulator technician and look after my personal gear better than most. If I hadn't checked (and found) the defective part and my buddy needed it, unless he knew how to buddy breath (I wont dive with you unless you can) he would have been SOL. The answer to your question is that mechanical parts fail; shi* happens.



Both are human and both can drown in water. Both can experience DCS and AGE. As far as the basics are concerned, they are the same. The only major differences in the diving is the equipment they eventually employ, the conditions and depth.


Would you say the samething about yourself driving your car. That you should have the same training and cost as a CDL truck driver which is 6 months or more and upwards toward $8000.00.

In some cases you would think that the recreational diver should be better trained. Commercially when I do a decompression dive, I have a decompression chamber on-site, an unlimited supply of gas, communication with the surface and a team of experienced people backing me up including a Paramedic and often a Hyperbaric Physician on-site (saturation). Solo divers have nobody and a buddy pair has the victim and one person who may not be trained to help. Think about it.

However, I would think a solo diver isnt diving black water, deep water, muti-tasking, mixed gases as much as a commercial diver. And the commercial industry has OSHA regulations to abide by which is more than likely why they have to have because of the OSHA standards and to stay below thier Nat'l average of injuries for thier sic codes



If they hold a gun, they should know enough not to shoot themselves in the foot.
Just because you have not shot yourself in the foot with a gun does not mean you are properly trained with a firearm.



If your life depended upon you getting an answer and the power went out, I'd have to say that you are not as well trained as your predecessor. My proof? You would die; he would not.

I would be interested on your thoughts on what you think the OW training should be?

 

[fnfalman]

Octopus regulators have been known to fail. They are dragged around in the mud, not serviced as regularly as they should be. I have found a hole in a diaphram of my regulator on the pre-dive check. I'm a regulator technician and look after my personal gear better than most. If I hadn't checked (and found) the defective part and my buddy needed it, unless he knew how to buddy breath (I wont dive with you unless you can) he would have been SOL. The answer to your question is that mechanical parts fail; shi* happens.

Who doesn't service the octo? When you get your reg serviced, everything attached to it gets refurbished.

Both are human and both can drown in water. Both can experience DCS and AGE. As far as the basics are concerned, they are the same. The only major differences in the diving is the equipment they eventually employ, the conditions and depth.

In some cases you would think that the recreational diver should be better trained. Commercially when I do a decompression dive, I have a decompression chamber on-site, an unlimited supply of gas, communication with the surface and a team of experienced people backing me up including a Paramedic and often a Hyperbaric Physician on-site (saturation). Solo divers have nobody and a buddy pair has the victim and one person who may not be trained to help. Think about it.

Commercial divers go into decompression and saturation dive conditions. Rec divers do not. Commercial divers and their employers are subjected to OSHA safety requirements, rec divers aren't subjected to any sort of regulations.

If they hold a gun, they should know enough not to shoot themselves in the foot.

Basic marksmanship is a lot different than tactical training. Just like OW and AOW for rec divers are lot different than deco diving, penetration diving, underwater working, et al. Same thing with civilian gun owners and soldiers. A civilian shooter needs to know which end of the barrel the bullet comes out and where to point it. A soldier needs to know how to shoot the gun while hanging upside down on a rappelling rope, or on the run while assaulting a machine gun nest.

If your life depended upon you getting an answer and the power went out, I'd have to say that you are not as well trained as your predecessor. My proof? You would die; he would not.

If the power went out, then so went the light. I doubt that my better trained predecessor who can operate a slide rule can use one in the dark. Not unless he/she has night vision goggles on and then he probably can't see the fine lines on a slide rule anyway not to mention lack of depth perception.

 

[fnfalman]

I wonder if I need to learn how to penetrate a hostile harbor and plant limpet mines or do recons or take out sentries in order to be held to the higher standards of military divers? And where can I get this training without having to go to the US Navy BUDS program or the US Army Combat Swimmer program?

 

[RU4SKUBA]

"I actually go back and fault our education systems for the situation with diver training...We seem more interested in presenting ciriculum instead of concentrating on student learning."

That is because in the industry there are very few instructors, staff and master instructors, or course directors with education backgrounds. The bureaucracy eats up the funds and leaves instructors inexperienced in teaching methods to develop their own methods, materials, and lesson plans with few additional resources or training opportunities; this creates inefficiency.

Rather than simply increasing the course load at the OW level, why not apply stricter Continuing Education requirements for Staff Instructors, Master Instructors, and Course Director qualifications?

The product of OWSI instructors improves and would theoretically make the classes more efficient and effective, it costs the agency nothing, requires dive instructors to develop some effective teaching skills, and creates a higher quality student in the same time-frame at the same cost to the consumer.

In my opinion no teacher should be offered a promotion or tenure until they've shown a respect for lifelong learning and continuing education.

 

[DCBC]

I would be interested on your thoughts on what you think the OW training should be?

Would you say the samething about yourself driving your car. That you should have the same training and cost as a CDL truck driver which is 6 months or more and upwards toward $8000.00.

If I was wanted to drive the same truck on the highway, yes.

Let's not lose perspective and get crazy. I think it's useful to compare apples to apples. The commercial and military diver "initial training" program for open-circuit air is similar to the LAC program (Welcome to L.A. County Scuba - Home of the Underwater Instructors Certification Course!). This is supplemented by additional training, again similar in scope to the LAC program (which maintains a 75 hour training program for an Advanced certification).

Obviously the commercial diver is expected to advance faster than a non-commercial student. The course is intense and the diver quickly builds underwater time.

However, I would think a solo diver isnt diving black water, deep water, muti-tasking, mixed gases as much as a commercial diver. And the commercial industry has OSHA regulations to abide by which is more than likely why they have to have because of the OSHA standards and to stay below thier Nat'l average of injuries for thier sic codes

I agree. That's why the military/commercial diver takes additional training beyond the initial program. Secondly, the safety equipment/procedures used by the m/c diver provides an additional safety margin that the recreational diver doesn't have. The rec diver has to be prepared to face an emergency alone.

Just because you have not shot yourself in the foot with a gun does not mean you are properly trained with a firearm.

Again I agree; that's why more training is required. Thanks for your comments.

 

[DCBC]

I wonder if I need to learn how to penetrate a hostile harbor and plant limpet mines or do recons or take out sentries in order to be held to the higher standards of military divers? And where can I get this training without having to go to the US Navy BUDS program or the US Army Combat Swimmer program?

You miss the point.

 

[fnfalman]

You miss the point.

The point was missed when in the very first post you attempted to compare civilian recreational dive training to military and commercial dive trainings.

I'm just trying to show you how ludicrous it is to even attempt to make such comparisons.

Part of military heightened diving standards is the task load that a military diver has to perform nowadays in war time. That's why military divers, Navy SEALs, Special Forces combat swimmers have to do 10-miles non-finned swims and 30-miles road marches with 100-lbs rucksack.

Tell me where in the civilian recreational dive world where I would have to do anything evenly remotely related to that?

So, yes, military diving standards are different AND more rigorous AND need to be improved with the time because the missions become more dangerous and hazardous. The enemies are wiser about SEALs'/Combat Swimmers' modus operandi, therefore these people have to devise different ways to get to the objectives and execute their missions.

A recreational diver doesn't face any different hazard nowadays than he did 40-years ago. If anything he faces less hazard because of improvement in equipment functionality.