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DCBC

Banned
Scuba Instructor
Messages
4,443
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931
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Since I have been diving (going on 45 years now) I have seen how the diving industry has changed. Years ago, diving wasn't something that one took-up because they wanted to go diving at a warm water resort for a couple of hours now and then, but was a bit of an endurance race that required good in-water ability and dedication. Time was given for the diver to gain confidence and in my case, dive in frigid water with a 1/4 inch Wet Suit that needed lots of talcum powder to get into. :)

Once a person was certified (it took me almost a year), they felt like they really accomplished something. Divers were competent; I never worried about who I was buddied-up with. Instructors were expected to walk-on-water and in my young eyes they could.

The Navy taught me in the same manner, be fit and be able to understand the science. Be competent with the kit and pull your own weight. When I entered the commercial field it was a continuation of the same ethic. Be safe for yourself and your buddy. What you want to accomplish is secondary to the safety of the team.

When I was able to attend an Instructor Evaluation Program, 3 of us passed out of 32 divers. The rest went back to study and perfect their skills. When I became an Instructor Evaluator and Course Director, the ratio was almost the same. The only difference would be an additional 2 or 3 "provisional passes" (people who passed everything other than a swim test, or exam and needed to redo it to be certified).

The world turns and times change. Today diving equipment is greatly improved which increases the safety of the sport. Training standards have dropped at all levels of the training system, making it easier for people (even non or poor swimmers to pass the swim test using fins) to be certified at all levels. Lower standards mean more divers, more divers means more money. The diving industry has blossomed into a financial success. Accident rates are manageable. Sounds like something to be excited about; so why is it that I'm troubled?

I often see divers, DMs and Instructors that don't seem to have a clue. When I operated a dive store and ran a charter company many divers seemed to be a hazard, requiring hand holding. Gone are the days of every diver being self-sufficient, acting as a valuable member of the buddy team and not requiring supervision to dive where they choose. They may get to that point in-time, but at the initial certification level, they don't seem to have the skill-sets necessary to do so.

So despite all the benefits available today, why have the old ways been rejected by the recreational diving industry. Even things like Buddy Breathing are being discarded as unnecessary. I don't mean to sound like an grumpy old guy who's caught in the past. I know things change, but they have only seemed to change within the sport diving field.

The military and the commercial have only increased their training standards (not lowering them). Do the military and commercial diving industries know something that sport diving has put aside; or is it that there's enough money to be made that the death and injury rate is deemed to be acceptable?
 
So despite all the benefits available today, why have the old ways been rejected by the recreational diving industry. Even things like Buddy Breathing are being discarded as unnecessary. I don't mean to sound like an grumpy old guy who's caught in the past. I know things change, but they have only seemed to change within the sport diving field.

The military and the commercial have only increased their training standards (not lowering them). Do the military and commercial diving industries know something that sport diving has put aside; or is it that there's enough money to be made that the death and injury rate is deemed to be acceptable?

It comes down to money. The recreational dive industry is looking for the simplest way to entice the greatest number of people underwater. whereas, the commercial/military divers have very specific skills and it cost ALOT of money to train them so increasing skill levels while it cost a little more, saves alot in the long run.

I am relatively new to diving, I was one of those resort course newbies, but have decided if I want to do it I will learn how to do it right. I have taken AOW, Rescue, returned to the pool and was re certified as a lifeguard, and swim laps when I can. But I am still a resort type diver, I enjoy diving when my work/family schedule allows me time off, I wish I could go more often but it's just not in my budget at the moment.

Do I think the standards are too low, probably yes. The problem is how to make them harder, without being discouraging, which will cost business.
 
Do I think the standards are too low, probably yes. The problem is how to make them harder, without being discouraging, which will cost business.

That's an interesting comment. Years ago people didn't expect everything to be easy, they didn't mind working for what they got. I think you make an interesting point that it's a matter of managing expectations. How much can you do before people stop seeing the value in learning to dive. If you'll pardon an analogy, I can grab a hamburger by going through a drive-through, so why bother to park the car and go inside?

Interestingly enough, it use to be that you basically needed to find a diving Instructor through a Club. One certification organization came along and divided the training program into several smaller/easier courses of instruction because they could make more money overall (more certifications, greater income). Other people selling burgers built a drive-through to remain competitive as well. It's a business. Quick and easy.

Regardless of how easy it is and how tasty the burgers are, there are some that see that too much grease is bad for your health. Will the diving industry stop serving quick burgers and go with a healthy menu (increase training standards)? Perhaps not as long as people thirst for what's unhealthy.
 
The military and the commercial have only increased their training standards (not lowering them). Do the military and commercial diving industries know something that sport diving has put aside; or is it that there's enough money to be made that the death and injury rate is deemed to be acceptable?

The military do dives that recreational divers don't do. The commercial sector do dives that recreational divers don't do, not to mention safety is paramount in the workplace nowadays because of insurance.

I don't go diving to repair hull damaged from crashing into ice bergs or patching up keels that are blown up by limpet mines. Nor do I swim/dive for 5-miles then low crawl out of the surf with a submachine gun in my hand ready to storm the beaches. I don't do underwater welding or pipe fitting.
 
Since I have been diving (going on 45 years now) I have seen how the diving industry has changed. Years ago, diving wasn't something that one took-up because they wanted to go diving at a warm water resort for a couple of hours now and then, but was a bit of an endurance race that required good in-water ability and dedication. Time was given for the diver to gain confidence and in my case, dive in frigid water with a 1/4 inch Wet Suit that needed lots of talcum powder to get into. :)

Once a person was certified (it took me almost a year), they felt like they really accomplished something. Divers were competent; I never worried about who I was buddied-up with. Instructors were expected to walk-on-water and in my young eyes they could.

The Navy taught me in the same manner, be fit and be able to understand the science. Be competent with the kit and pull your own weight. When I entered the commercial field it was a continuation of the same ethic. Be safe for yourself and your buddy. What you want to accomplish is secondary to the safety of the team.

When I was able to attend an Instructor Evaluation Program, 3 of us passed out of 32 divers. The rest went back to study and perfect their skills. When I became an Instructor Evaluator and Course Director, the ratio was almost the same. The only difference would be an additional 2 or 3 "provisional passes" (people who passed everything other than a swim test, or exam and needed to redo it to be certified).

The world turns and times change. Today diving equipment is greatly improved which increases the safety of the sport. Training standards have dropped at all levels of the training system, making it easier for people (even non or poor swimmers to pass the swim test using fins) to be certified at all levels. Lower standards mean more divers, more divers means more money. The diving industry has blossomed into a financial success. Accident rates are manageable. Sounds like something to be excited about; so why is it that I'm troubled?

I often see divers, DMs and Instructors that don't seem to have a clue. When I operated a dive store and ran a charter company many divers seemed to be a hazard, requiring hand holding. Gone are the days of every diver being self-sufficient, acting as a valuable member of the buddy team and not requiring supervision to dive where they choose. They may get to that point in-time, but at the initial certification level, they don't seem to have the skill-sets necessary to do so.

So despite all the benefits available today, why have the old ways been rejected by the recreational diving industry. Even things like Buddy Breathing are being discarded as unnecessary. I don't mean to sound like an grumpy old guy who's caught in the past. I know things change, but they have only seemed to change within the sport diving field.

The military and the commercial have only increased their training standards (not lowering them). Do the military and commercial diving industries know something that sport diving has put aside; or is it that there's enough money to be made that the death and injury rate is deemed to be acceptable?









Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight or those who view their own views as so; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.[1] Alternatively, the term elitism may be used to describe a situation in which power is concentrated in the hands of the elite. Those opposed to elitism are considered supporters of anti-elitism, populism or the political theory of pluralism. Elite theory is the sociological or political science analysis of elite influence in society - elite theorists regard pluralism as a utopian ideal.

Elitism may also refer to situations in which an elite individual assumes special privileges and responsibilities in the hope that this arrangement will benefit humanity or themselves. At times, elitism is closely related to social class and what sociologists call social stratification. Members of the upper classes are sometimes, though inaccurately, known as the social elite. The term elitism is also sometimes used to denote situations in which a group of people claiming to possess high abilities or simply an in-group or cadre grant themselves extra privileges at the expense of others. This form of elitism may be described as discrimination. Such elitism has social psychological consequences [2]

















I also skydive and rock climb and if you go over to the drop zone or rock climbing.com you will see several posts there that has the same attitude as you do with SCUBA diving about the standards being lowered and it is all about the money.

No doubt in my mind that you are a very conscientious instructor. I really do enjoy reading your posts and learn a LOT from your comments. However, it just seems to me that the high risk sports always attracts the elitist who feels that there are too many skydivers, rock climbers, scuba divers etc etc, that are ill trained, ill equiped or are just plain stupid. Of course there are some out there that are just plain dumb, however you will have those people in any sport, regardless of the perceived risks.
 
The military do dives that recreational divers don't do. The commercial sector do dives that recreational divers don't do, not to mention safety is paramount in the workplace nowadays because of insurance.

I don't go diving to repair hull damaged from crashing into ice bergs or patching up keels that are blown up by limpet mines. Nor do I swim/dive for 5-miles then low crawl out of the surf with a submachine gun in my hand ready to storm the beaches. I don't do underwater welding or pipe fitting.

That's true, but the things you mention require the diver to do things in addition to diving and they require training for that. How is the diving they do different?

When a military/commercial diver is trained in the basics of open circuit, he's trained in the same way as I was trained when I was first certified as a recreational diver. Why is that? Is a skill deemed necessary for one person and not for the other. Why should a commercial diver be required to buddy breath and a recreational diver not be?
Should recreational divers know less about basic diving skills diving than there military/commercial counterparts?

I'll admit that military/commercial divers dive in worse conditions, deeper and longer, they do this through extensive training beyond the basic skills. However the basic skills are the same. One is trained in basic open-water skills in 50 hours, the other in 25 hours or less. I just don't see why certain basic skill-sets are no longer required. Why do you think the same training deemed necessary for sport divers several years ago and not now?
 
I also skydive and rock climb and if you go over to the drop zone or rock climbing.com you will see several posts there that has the same attitude as you do with SCUBA diving about the standards being lowered and it is all about the money.

No doubt in my mind that you are a very conscientious instructor. I really do enjoy reading your posts and learn a LOT from your comments. However, it just seems to me that the high risk sports always attracts the elitist who feels that there are too many skydivers, rock climbers, scuba divers etc etc, that are ill trained, ill equiped or are just plain stupid. Of course there are some out there that are just plain dumb, however you will have those people in any sport, regardless of the perceived risks.

Thanks for your response. Personally I'm not into elitism. My only concern is how we can make the diving community safer. Divers dive because it's fun. That's why I took up flying. DOT didn't however take the attitude, how can we make this easier for the student; if anything, they held a hard line. Perhaps it's because they had nothing to gain by doing so.

In the unregulated industry of recreational diving, the direction is controlled by profit. I wonder how much the aviation industry would change if we gave them control of licensing pilots? It seems to me that the fox is guarding the hen house in many ways. Why is it that LAC has increased their diver training standards and PADI has lowered them? If the extra training is not required why doesn't LAC lower their standards as well? Obviously I'm not the only person who feels this way.

I did a survey on SB asking if people were satisfied with the current training system for training OW divers. The majority stated they were not. I guess we all see things from our own perspectives filtered through our personal experiences. I for one would like things improved and feel that this is not such a bad thing. If a future accident can be prevented, it may be someone that you or I know.
 
$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $

its all about money and understanding. Pick a sport that needs certification and you will hear the same statement.

It is all about "acceptable" risk. The problem is when $ are a factor in the acceptable risk formula. Dive co's at the resorts now have to work a LOT harder for the tourist buck than 40 years ago when I took my first tropical vacation and most people were happy to play on the beach with a beer in hand. Now there is everything from Zip lines to quads asking for your money.

I would be interested to see the "accident" rates (percentages) from 40 years ago as compared to today. My guess is that it was more dangerous 20 year ago. The dive tables have been updated, the equipment far superior. The sport as a whole has progressed.

The biggest thing I found missing in my Resort course, was the emphasis that I, ME, and ONLY ME am responsible for my safety. There was a nother thread I read about the Learners Permit, and I think that is the attitude that is mostly missing from a lot of people today. But I am not sure is just a symptom of diving, but more of an instant gratifcation society.

The volume of divers has also had a benefit. It is cheaper to buy equipment and equip manufacturers are willing to do more R and D because they now have a decent sized market to sell to. More and more research and information is available, tragically, sometimes due to the darwinian efforts of some people.
 
I would be interested to see the "accident" rates (percentages) from 40 years ago as compared to today. My guess is that it was more dangerous 20 year ago. The dive tables have been updated, the equipment far superior. The sport as a whole has progressed.

Thanks for your input. I read a study a few years back that indicated that although diving equipment has improved, the accident rate per exposure hour was about the same. I'm sure one of the academics on SB can provide up-to-date information.

Unless the situation has changed, it would seem that although the technology has improved, it has been offset by the training standards (which have been lowered). Interestingly enough, in the commercial diving world, technology has increased, training standards have increased overall and the accident rate has dropped.
 
Perspective!

Hope there are no hot younger female divers reading 'cause I'm not really this OLD, but I started diving in the Summer of '66 and there was no training whatsoever. A few days after my 7th birthday I was already an experienced backpacker and white water enthusiast, had just swam in my second Idaho State AAU swimming meet and had been freediving for 3 years. I'm sure my dad must have explained ESA to me, 'cause I did it regularly (J-valve). No push-ups, no running or swimming laps, no mask ripped off, no written test, no cussing.....

The Hensley's and Hall's went in on a compressor and some dive gear and started diving! Not really much to it. 10-20 dives per summer for the next 10 years in lakes and rivers. 15 years later had to get certified to rent gear on Kauai. Learned the math, learned how to use BC, learned how to use tables, learned about the SPG and alternate second stage (buddy breath???).

It's a recreation not a sport. Obese people get technical dive certs. My cave instructor dropped his IANTD Instructor rating 'cause he couldn't do a 35' free dive. It ain't rocket surgery!
 
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