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Joewr
Joewr
Diving Uncertified !!!!
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SpyderTek
Guest
Can you define "close" for me? That means to put the little Bottle next to it right? Not to delete it Right?
Yes, I think this issue has been explored as far as it can go and should be marked closed. However, I also feel that alot of the information from both sides is very useful to people and should remain read-able. So I would regret to see it deleted.
ST
Yes, I think this issue has been explored as far as it can go and should be marked closed. However, I also feel that alot of the information from both sides is very useful to people and should remain read-able. So I would regret to see it deleted.
ST
Spydertek,
I was looking for an answer aspecialy regarding your o/w instructor. From your description of the curse, like I said, the word criminal came to my mind, but you later claimed he is one of the best instructors in the wrold. Please explain.
oh, and please read also my thread "thoughts about scuba instructors".
There's some prety good input there as why instructors are the best (and in my opinion the only proper) way to learn scuba.
I was looking for an answer aspecialy regarding your o/w instructor. From your description of the curse, like I said, the word criminal came to my mind, but you later claimed he is one of the best instructors in the wrold. Please explain.
oh, and please read also my thread "thoughts about scuba instructors".
There's some prety good input there as why instructors are the best (and in my opinion the only proper) way to learn scuba.
SpyderTek
Guest
Oh, Ok sorry.
The reason my Confined Water instructor was not right for me (despite his credits) was that he has the same temperment and personality as my father. So, although I am confortable I learned what he had to teach me it wasn't taught at a pace I was comfortable learning. I felt to rushed. Plus being reminded of my father made it just a worse situation.
As far as my O.W. dives go I had a completely different instructor. Closer to my age and temperment. It was the most fun I have ever had and he made me feel extremely comfortable in the water. I regret every moment I am out of the water now. In fact, I am going back this weekend with my school just to get more dive time even though I am certified already.
As far as your other thread goes, I have read it and am pretty much in agreement with everything you had to say there. It is an excellent post.
SpyderTek
The reason my Confined Water instructor was not right for me (despite his credits) was that he has the same temperment and personality as my father. So, although I am confortable I learned what he had to teach me it wasn't taught at a pace I was comfortable learning. I felt to rushed. Plus being reminded of my father made it just a worse situation.
As far as my O.W. dives go I had a completely different instructor. Closer to my age and temperment. It was the most fun I have ever had and he made me feel extremely comfortable in the water. I regret every moment I am out of the water now. In fact, I am going back this weekend with my school just to get more dive time even though I am certified already.
As far as your other thread goes, I have read it and am pretty much in agreement with everything you had to say there. It is an excellent post.
SpyderTek
Thx Spydertek. Now that you'v patted my ego we could really become friends 
.
What I refered to, was your description of your course, something like "2.5 hours in the pool and we were certified". That somehow colided with your claim that it was a great instructor. Did you exagerate a bit there ????
I cant be nasty any longer ARGH!!!!!
:fury:
Guess that's it. :bonk:
.What I refered to, was your description of your course, something like "2.5 hours in the pool and we were certified". That somehow colided with your claim that it was a great instructor. Did you exagerate a bit there ????
I cant be nasty any longer ARGH!!!!!
:fury:
Guess that's it. :bonk:
SpyderTek
Guest
Yes, We only had 2.5 hours in the pool for our Confined Water dives. Where I was lead to believe from the PADI manual and video that there were at least 4 Confined Water dives on seperate days.
However, EVERY dive shop in the tri-state area (read: New York, New Jersey, Connenticut) that I have been able to look into (about 13 or 14 of them) has an "Executive O.W. Certification" course. That is 1 day in the pool, 1 day in class, and 2 days Check Out in Open Water. So, it wasn't that my class / instructor was out of the norm for the 2.5 hour pool time. That is standard here.
And if I had to chose between paying $300 dollars for 2.5 hours pool time with an instructor and $0 dollars for unlimited pool time at a friend's house I would go for the latter.
ST
However, EVERY dive shop in the tri-state area (read: New York, New Jersey, Connenticut) that I have been able to look into (about 13 or 14 of them) has an "Executive O.W. Certification" course. That is 1 day in the pool, 1 day in class, and 2 days Check Out in Open Water. So, it wasn't that my class / instructor was out of the norm for the 2.5 hour pool time. That is standard here.
And if I had to chose between paying $300 dollars for 2.5 hours pool time with an instructor and $0 dollars for unlimited pool time at a friend's house I would go for the latter.
ST
Yep, the little bottle appears and the thread remains. It just cannot be accessed for additional posts. It is up to the group...just tell me what you would like............
Joewr
Joewr
Spydertek:
Please read your first messsage, and notice what you implied there. You didn't mention ANY work not in the pool.
I know the SSI standards, and I belive that PADIS are more or less the same. I can check also for the RSTC standards to see the general minimum if you like.
SSI standards:
1 pool snorkeling
4 pool scuba
1 o/w snorkeling
4 o/w scuba, recomended another one. where I live, the requires at least 10 total scuba dives.
It is alowed to do up to 2 scuba dives per day. This makes the course at least 4 days long for the diving part. Anything less is beyond standards.
Please read your first messsage, and notice what you implied there. You didn't mention ANY work not in the pool.
I know the SSI standards, and I belive that PADIS are more or less the same. I can check also for the RSTC standards to see the general minimum if you like.
SSI standards:
1 pool snorkeling
4 pool scuba
1 o/w snorkeling
4 o/w scuba, recomended another one. where I live, the requires at least 10 total scuba dives.
It is alowed to do up to 2 scuba dives per day. This makes the course at least 4 days long for the diving part. Anything less is beyond standards.
SpyderTek
Guest
Liquid,
I don't understand, you keep saying 'you implied this and you implied that....' here is my original statement quoted:
"My $300 buck? What did they buy me? The PADI dive book and Video and 2 hours in the pool being rushed through exercises so fast as to not even notice I was underwater for a second. Then a multiple choice written test that compared to getting a driver's license was a walk in the park. "
There is nothing to implicate here. It is straight forward. How can you not feel rushed if you jamn all the skills you go over in the confined water portions of the course (which as you clearly outline is 5 days worth of stuff) into 2 hours or so?
As I state above, We DID do the skills. And as I stated just recently, this is NORMAL meathod in this area. EVERY dive shop offers this package and time table.
My statement is not any indication on the ability of my instructor. (Whom has sat on the board of standards for PADI a number of years) It is just how the system works. Period. It is the STANDARD here. You CAN take longer if you want to but the dive shops here use this time table as a SELLING point. The fact that they get you certified in 3 days max.
This means that either it is totaly sanctioned by PADI as acceptable or they conviently turn a blind eye for the $$ aspects of it.
With regard to out of pool work (IE: Classroom work) No, there wasn't any of it. None was (or is in my opinion) needed. The book is very clear and if anything is confusing in the book the video shows it all. Read the book, watch the video, take the test. Simple. What do you need classwork for? If you need to ask a question on a particular issue in the book you don't understand you can either look for the answer here (IE: Online) or pick up your telephone and call the shop and ask.
They then charge you another $300 for the OW weekend part of the course.
You and/or I may not like these facts of the industry but that is how it is none-the-less. What can we do? Report each and every one of the 14 shops in the Tri-State area to PADI? It isn't like they are keeping it a secret when they are advertizing it.
Based on these facts I can say with all confidence that it is not worth paying for the first half of the course just to have an instructor in the pool for 2 hours with you for a vast majority of people learning SCUBA.
I'd rather spend $45 for the book and video, practice in a pool with a friend for as long as I think I need, take the test then pay my $300 to be taken OW with an instructor to get the 4 cert dives.
Finally, YES there are people that need clsoer supervison. they aren't dumb people or anything they just need more "instruction" to be able to learn something new. For these people I recomend they sign up for the course and demand their full 5 days in the pool (with instructor) and classroom time. But neither of us can make a blanket statement that "everyone needs to learn with an instructor" (your side) or "an instructor is a waste of time for everyone" (what my side looks like if you attribute things I never said to my argument.)
Without Malice,
SpyderTek
I don't understand, you keep saying 'you implied this and you implied that....' here is my original statement quoted:
"My $300 buck? What did they buy me? The PADI dive book and Video and 2 hours in the pool being rushed through exercises so fast as to not even notice I was underwater for a second. Then a multiple choice written test that compared to getting a driver's license was a walk in the park. "
There is nothing to implicate here. It is straight forward. How can you not feel rushed if you jamn all the skills you go over in the confined water portions of the course (which as you clearly outline is 5 days worth of stuff) into 2 hours or so?
As I state above, We DID do the skills. And as I stated just recently, this is NORMAL meathod in this area. EVERY dive shop offers this package and time table.
My statement is not any indication on the ability of my instructor. (Whom has sat on the board of standards for PADI a number of years) It is just how the system works. Period. It is the STANDARD here. You CAN take longer if you want to but the dive shops here use this time table as a SELLING point. The fact that they get you certified in 3 days max.
This means that either it is totaly sanctioned by PADI as acceptable or they conviently turn a blind eye for the $$ aspects of it.
With regard to out of pool work (IE: Classroom work) No, there wasn't any of it. None was (or is in my opinion) needed. The book is very clear and if anything is confusing in the book the video shows it all. Read the book, watch the video, take the test. Simple. What do you need classwork for? If you need to ask a question on a particular issue in the book you don't understand you can either look for the answer here (IE: Online) or pick up your telephone and call the shop and ask.
They then charge you another $300 for the OW weekend part of the course.
You and/or I may not like these facts of the industry but that is how it is none-the-less. What can we do? Report each and every one of the 14 shops in the Tri-State area to PADI? It isn't like they are keeping it a secret when they are advertizing it.
Based on these facts I can say with all confidence that it is not worth paying for the first half of the course just to have an instructor in the pool for 2 hours with you for a vast majority of people learning SCUBA.
I'd rather spend $45 for the book and video, practice in a pool with a friend for as long as I think I need, take the test then pay my $300 to be taken OW with an instructor to get the 4 cert dives.
Finally, YES there are people that need clsoer supervison. they aren't dumb people or anything they just need more "instruction" to be able to learn something new. For these people I recomend they sign up for the course and demand their full 5 days in the pool (with instructor) and classroom time. But neither of us can make a blanket statement that "everyone needs to learn with an instructor" (your side) or "an instructor is a waste of time for everyone" (what my side looks like if you attribute things I never said to my argument.)
Without Malice,
SpyderTek
Wow.
What you say sounds really bad to me.
First of all, abut the course-
I took it that after 2.5 hours in the pool and a test you were certified. That how I understood what you said.
As for the price-
You mean that to get an o/w cert costs there about 600$?!?!?!? WOW!
here it costs about 300$-400$ the whole thing.
Note that pool work can take 2 days, acording to the standards I mentioned- Up to 2 scuba dives a day. snorkeling dosen't count as scuba. So it's a minimum of 2days pool+ 2 days o/w.
About the lessons,
Working the way you suggested leads to mal-knowledge. People dont alwais understand the things correctly, though they think they do. I know it from experience. PADI and SSI books aren't that different to make this the couse. Things like using the time table should be practiced in class, and things like decompression and barotrauma must be discussed further in order that students really understand it. I mean UNDERSTAND, not able to pass the test. In my opinion the test is B.S. When a student of mine finishes the course, I expect him to understtand why he should ascend at 3 Meters/min rate, what will probobly happen to him if he makes an emergency ascent from 30M, how to really know if he is properly weighed and so on and so on (btw-do you know the answer to all of these questions?) things that are not, and can not be discussed in a book.
As for the way you refer to insurance,
Sorry, but I cant seriously take what is said by someone that this is his view regarding insurance. You are counting on schaming hospitals!? What kind of a way is that?!?!?!?
What you say sounds really bad to me.
First of all, abut the course-
I took it that after 2.5 hours in the pool and a test you were certified. That how I understood what you said.
As for the price-
You mean that to get an o/w cert costs there about 600$?!?!?!? WOW!
here it costs about 300$-400$ the whole thing.
Note that pool work can take 2 days, acording to the standards I mentioned- Up to 2 scuba dives a day. snorkeling dosen't count as scuba. So it's a minimum of 2days pool+ 2 days o/w.
About the lessons,
Working the way you suggested leads to mal-knowledge. People dont alwais understand the things correctly, though they think they do. I know it from experience. PADI and SSI books aren't that different to make this the couse. Things like using the time table should be practiced in class, and things like decompression and barotrauma must be discussed further in order that students really understand it. I mean UNDERSTAND, not able to pass the test. In my opinion the test is B.S. When a student of mine finishes the course, I expect him to understtand why he should ascend at 3 Meters/min rate, what will probobly happen to him if he makes an emergency ascent from 30M, how to really know if he is properly weighed and so on and so on (btw-do you know the answer to all of these questions?) things that are not, and can not be discussed in a book.
As for the way you refer to insurance,
Sorry, but I cant seriously take what is said by someone that this is his view regarding insurance. You are counting on schaming hospitals!? What kind of a way is that?!?!?!?
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