Diving with a 100cf, uh, pony?

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My diving often gives me free access to AL80s, and my SAC is extremely poor, so I've been known to sling an AL80 and wear one on my back. With my 36# BP/W, I don't really notice any balance problems, but I can definitely feel drag from the slung tank much more than I do from my double 72s (disclaimer: I probably have less than 5hrs on each setup).



If you have a reg freeflow, you lose all of the gas in the cylinder that's freeflowing. A manifold gives access to both tanks from either regulator. Compared with a single tank / single reg setup, you're in the same position you were before, so it's not worse (unless you've used that extra gas to get yourself into deco), it's just not any better.

Oh.... I see.

Another reason I wanted to sling was easier access to the tank valve. I can reach back and turn my primary tank valve off/on no problem. With a slung tank I'll be able to turn its valve no problem as well.

With two tanks sidemounted behind me with no manifold... I could reach the valve of my right tank, but the left tank valve would be difficult to reach because it's mounted on my left but the valve is jutting towards the right, so the knob would be somewhere right behind my head in a hard to reach position?
 
As a side note, planning on extremely long bottom times sort of meshes with your previous dive plans and aggressive progression. I know that 3hrs @ 50' on 36% is within NDL, but if you suspect that you're headed for tech training at some point, you might want to discuss equipment with that crowd and the instructors sooner rather than later. Even if a full doubles rig seems like a lot of effort/money/garage space, it means you won't have to get rid of cobbled-together junk further down the line. It seems that "further down the line" might come awfully quickly for you at this rate.
 
I'm curious - when tech divers dive with two tanks at their sides, how large are those tanks and how badly do those tanks affect their trim and balance?

Basically, a set of doubles with solid backplate, provides a much more stable 'platform' from which to hang stages.

The doubles themselves are more stable than a regular BCD. They sit closer to the back and (with steel bands) are held firmly in place. They tend to balance the load across the length and breadth of the divers' back nicely.

Imagine diving with your current BCD and tank. Now imagine slinging something that is several lbs heavier and lighter (as you use the air) onto one side of your torso....

If you are diving with a wing... then you can transfer air into the corresponding side of the wing to offset the buoyancy of what you have slung. You can't do that easily with a jacket BCD.

I was thinking I could even do something like carry two smaller 60s on each side of me if balance was a real issue.

You might as well go down the route of getting a 'sidemount' kit. These are getting more popular now and access to appropriate training courses is easier.

If you were to carry 2x 60s, plus your main cylinder, then wouldn't you be defeating the primary objective of lowering costs??

Which redundancies would I not have that an isolation manifold would give me?

An isolated manifold enables you to access the combined total of both doubles cylinders from either regulator. In the event of a regulator failure, you can shut down that regulator, but still access all your gas from the other regulator.

With indie cylinders, any failure (tank or regulator) will lead to a total loss of gas from the cylinder concerned.

Basically, an isolated manifold provides a diver with many more options on how to deal with a gas loss emergency. The primary advantage is that it preserves access to the gas in both cylinders in nearly all circumstances (the exception being a failure where the valve screws into the cylinder).

It isn't that costly to set up a system of doubles.

Regulator:
You have a 1st stage, LPI, spg and 2x second stages.
You need an extra 1st stage (and spg for indie cylinders)
Remove your AAS and put it onto your new 1st stage, along with spg (if reqd).

BCD (if used):
If your BCD is suitable for doubles, you just need to buy a doubles adaptor. These aren't too costly and are simple to fit as a replacement for your existing cam band.

Doubles Adaptor (to fit as camband). Cost approx $60-80.
bcd_twin_cam_band.jpg


Single Tank Wing (if used):
You have: Single Wing, Backplate, Harness, STA.
You need: Double Wing, SS tank bands.
Dismantle your wing from the backplate and harness (2 mins). Replace with doubles wing and re-assemble finishing with the tank bands, rather than STA. Total change-over time.. less than 5 mins.

Bands, Wings and spare 1st stages are relatively cheap...and can often be bought at low cost via Ebay/Craigs List.
 
Another reason I wanted to sling was easier access to the tank valve. I can reach back and turn my primary tank valve off/on no problem. With a slung tank I'll be able to turn its valve no problem as well.

With two tanks sidemounted behind me with no manifold... I could reach the valve of my right tank, but the left tank valve would be difficult to reach because it's mounted on my left but the valve is jutting towards the right, so the knob would be somewhere right behind my head in a hard to reach position?

sidemount tanks are mounted on your...side. not behind you. the valves are about armpit height & hanging an inch or so lower than that, so you have both in reach at all times. they are usually right & left 'handed' valves so both knobs hang under.

there are lots of options. likely the easiest is to sling an al80. remember that the extra gas can get you in time/deco trouble, and have fun.
 
I'm curious - when tech divers dive with two tanks at their sides, how large are those tanks and how badly do those tanks affect their trim and balance?

Size - depends
Affect trim and balance - with aluminum tanks, not at all that I've noticed

With two tanks sidemounted [sic] behind me with no manifold... I could reach the valve of my right tank, but the left tank valve would be difficult to reach because it's mounted on my left but the valve is jutting towards the right, so the knob would be somewhere right behind my head in a hard to reach position?

Not if you get a proper valve (one with the knob to the left).

Ohhhh.... interesting. I basically had this idea after talking to someone who dove doubles around here.

1. You buy a second tank, second regulator set, manifold, steel band, wing, and other accessories. You then put it all together and never take it apart because it's a total bitch to do so.

2. You have a dedicated singles setup. So a third tank, third set of regs, third BC, third computer, etc.

I guess just diving with doubles with no manifolds would be best, huh? Or is it actually easier to dive with a slung tank?

Disassembling doubles regulators isn't a big deal. As much as I bitch about it every time, it only takes a few minutes to do. Disassembling manifolded doubles would be a bit of a bitch, particularly so since you'd have to get them filled afterwards (so you can't just spur of the moment decide to dive singles). With independent doubles, it would be as easy as loosening the bands.

Regarding your "what redundancy am I losing" question, to understand the answer you really have to understand how the manifold works. There is always gas in the manifold (in other words, you don't have to turn a knob in order to fill the manifold). The knob charges the regulator. If the valve is off, the connected regulator won't work. But with a manifolded doubles set, you can breathe off the both cylinders with one regulator (accessing the opposite side through the manifold). So if you have a failure which affects only a regulator (DIN o-ring or anything beyond), you still have complete gas. However, if you aren't proficient at identifying problems and correctly manipulating your valves, that manifold will also allow you to lose gas from the "good" side when you have a failure.

Independent doubles (what you are describing regardless of whether they're back mounted, side mounted, or a combination) don't have the "lose all your gas due to a single failure" con, nor do they have the "access all your gas after a failure" pro. These are the choices that we make after appropriate training, mentorship and thought.
 
Excellent last paragraph Marc.

Fuzzy, not addressing whether you personally should dive with a slung stage to increase your bottom time (how would I know, I've never met you), diving with a slung Al 80 is easy enough (good bouyancy characteristics for this application) and I do it quite often. I also started doing it for the very reason you gave in the OP; wanting to extend my bottom time without reverting to a fully fledged doubles system. I did however quickly move to an ID set up though, which I use as my main, deeper water recreational system. Now I sling the big boy because there are times when it is more convenient to pack my singles rig and just snap on the stage. However, I would refrain from calling it a pony as, in my mind, a pony bottle is not intended to extend a dive but for bailout. This application would cause me to call such a tank a travel or bottom stage, depending on what I've got in it and why (just a bit of semantics for the AR part in me).

I notice no difference in my trim or bouyancy other than a smaller stage like an Al 40. If I intend to suck both tanks all the way down I might add a couple of pounds to my belt. The only issue is routing the hose so that the reg sits comfortably in your mouth (just make sure the hose bends the right way). A bit of experimentation will sort that out.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, there is no right way to mount your tanks. Do what you want within your skill and experience level. Manifolded, independent, sidemount or slung; they all have their places.

Here's a pic of me using an Al 80 in Pavillion lake:

Picture2005-6.jpg


and a fresher me (note the ankle weights and jacket BCD) wondering why I would mount a pony when I could ride a horse at Whytecliff park:

99019-1.jpg
 
Say that I wanted to extend bottom time to several hours underwater. Could I dive with a second slung 100cf tank as a pony?
.

Carrying an extra 100 cubic feet of air at 50 feet of depth is not going to get you several hours of bottom time. You might, with real good air consumption, get almost 2 hours of dive time, if you don't factor in the gas for descent, ascent, any stops, safety/contengency.

I calc a max. theoretical dive with 80+100 = 180 cf of air at 95 minutes. The US Navey No-D table stops at 92 minutes at 50 fsw. Going to 36% EAN will just get you an extra 3 minutes past the No-D limit. So why bother.
 
I would avoid using steel tanks as a stage. I didn't see any mention if your 100cf tanks are AL or Steel, but if they are steel, I would either make them into a set of doubles or a set of sidemount tanks. Steels are often too much weight on one side for stages. Al tanks are better suited for stages as they are closer to neutral. Also it's easier and cheaper to find AL80 tanks.

Take some time to read up on gas management both before and after the dive. You should be able to plan how much you need and what would happen if something breaks. Tthe gas management you mention in the first post for during your dive (breath one tank down most of the way then switch), while likely acceptable for a dive to 50ft in open water, is not the generally recommended method. Searches for sidemount or independent doubles should help you learn what is recommended and why. Then you should be better prepared to make the decision about your own gas management.

There are some differences between a stage+backmount single, backmount manifolded/independent doubles, and sidemount. Having dove all those configurations but backmount independent doubles, I'd rate my preference in cold water as

1. BM manifolded doubles (best protection against regulator freeflow)
2. SM independent doubles (good access to valves, but more conscious gas management)
I avoid - 3. stage + BM single (trim issues with few advantages)
I avoid - 4. BM Independent doubles (Disadvantages of SM + disadvantages of BM, few advantages)

During warm water travel I'm likely to switch 1 & 2 as I find it easier to get 2 AL80s vs doubles at most resorts.

Regardless of what you choose, seek out an instructor or mentor to show you the ropes and take it slow getting used to any new style of diving.
 
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